Public Safety Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Had the transfer already taken place?

[Kirstan Gagnon]

Not the morning of...no.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It's interesting to me that the victims' families were not told until essentially the moment of Mr. Bernardo's transfer.

As a system, in your opening remarks, Ms. Kelly, you said that victims need to come first and that they would be the priority, but it seems that Bernardo actually knew of his transfer before the victims' families did, which would then be putting him, as the criminal, ahead of the victims. Is that not true?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, in terms of offenders, they can request a transfer and/or we have to do the security classification at intervals, and sometimes that will lead to a transfer, so we work with the offender.

In terms of the victims, again, we followed what was in the law and the policy. Because he was transferred to a medium-security institution, as Kirsten said, we informed the victims the morning of the transfer. Moving forward, this is again a recommendation that was made, and this was why I established a multidisciplinary committee so that we can work with the victims to see how we can improve our services.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

My point still remains. Mr. Bernardo was afforded the opportunity to know that he was going to be transferred before the families of the victims were made aware of such a thing, which again highlights the fact that the perpetrator was put before the victims' families—the victims, essentially.

I think that highlights something that is very wrong with our justice system. When we're talking about the revictimization of those who are impacted by scenarios like this, we have example after example. I can think of Terri-Lynne McClintic, who of course brutally assaulted, raped and murdered an eight-year-old girl and was moved from a prison to a healing lodge. Only after that was the family all of a sudden notified. The father spoke of the traumatic impact that had on him.

I think about Nicholas Baig. In 2017, he was in Pickering, Ontario—Ms. O'Connell's riding—and he murdered his wife. She was nine months pregnant. He stabbed her 17 times, and he was moved from maximum to medium security. Only after that was the family made aware of this. The mother has spoken out about this and the revictimization of that and the impact it has had on her as an individual.

I think about Mark Smich. He brutally killed two people for no other reason than simply being fascinated by death. He was convicted to serve two life sentences, and he too was moved from maximum to medium, and then families found out only after. They have spoken out about the impact of that revictimization.

I would have to ask you this, Ms. Kelly: Do you truly believe that victims are put first?

[Anne Kelly]

It's a delicate balance. I can understand. As I said, some of the crimes you mentioned that were committed were unspeakable, unimaginable.

Frankly, I don't know what they go through. I can only imagine. The thing is—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

We're at time. My question is simple. Do you believe that the rights of victims are put first?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, it's a balance.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The question is simple. Do you believe that the rights of victims are put first?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Kelly.

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

We're going to move on to Mr. Bittle online now, please.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'd like to ask my first question of Mr. Tupper.

You stated that Public Safety is not involved in the operational decisions of the Correctional Service of Canada. Can you explain why that is?

[Shawn Tupper]

Within the context of how our portfolio works, my relationship with all of the portfolios would be driven by policy, by our ability to convene and provide oversight within the portfolio. Operational matters in all of our organizations are vested in the leadership of the respective organizations, and that has to do with the expertise of the organizations and their capacity to best make those decisions.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

There's been some suggestion, maybe more so in the past when this first came up, that the minister could merely make an order pursuant to standing legislation specifically related to one specific offender. Is that something within the minister's powers under the legislation?

[Shawn Tupper]

On the specifics of the powers, Chad, why don't you drop in?

[Chad Westmacott, Director General, Community Safety, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you very much.

There is definitely a separation. We'll have to take a look at the specifics in legislation, but there is definitely a separation in terms of the ministerial decision making and the operational nature of CSC. The legislation sets the parameters under which CSC operates and the authorities of the minister, but in the case of a transfer of an offender, it definitely comes down to the legislation in setting the parameters that Commissioner Kelly has referred to. Then the operationalization of those parameters falls under the CSC's mandate.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I'll be even more blunt. Would it be a legal order for the minister to interject in the specific transfer of an individual?

Maybe that's a better question for Ms. Kelly.

[Anne Kelly]

My understanding is that the minister does not have a role. It's very much an operational decision.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much. I'll turn to Dr. Zinger.

Later this week, the House will debate Bill C-351, which requires inmates who have been found to be dangerous offenders to be designated to a maximum-security penitentiary. If passed, what impact would this bill have on public safety, if any?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I'm not sure. Again, I'm not familiar with that.

What I can tell you is that, for those who are designated as dangerous offenders and receive an indeterminate sentence—not a determinate followed by a long-term supervision order—the vast and great majority of them will never get out of the penitentiary. The great majority will die behind bars, to the point where we could suggest that a dangerous offender designation with an indeterminate sentence is actually a life sentence without parole for the majority of them.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

On the topic of Bill C-351, for Ms. Kelly, with the potential requirement of maximum security, would that impact safety within an institution?

[Anne Kelly]

I would say yes.

First of all, we might need more space at maximum security. Also, at this point, there's no incentive for offenders to participate in rehabilitation programs in terms of maintaining good behaviour. The fact is that we have security classification and we have processes, but there are inmates who will never make their way to minimum security. I just want to be clear on that.

Definitely, keeping those who are serving life in maximum security for the rest of their lives would have impacts on how we manage the population, and potential impacts on the safety of our staff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Kelly.

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

We are moving now to Mr. Baldinelli, please.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I think all of us can fully sympathize with the victims and their loved ones. I think that's why we're all here today. It's to try to make some sense of the decisions that were made to allow an individual as heinous as Paul Bernardo to be transferred to a medium-security institution.

Ms. Kelly, I want to begin with you. On July 20, which was the same date that you and the Correctional Service of Canada published the review into the transfer of Paul Bernardo, the Canadian Press quoted you as saying, “The fact that he is at a medium-security institution does not negate the fact that he is a psychopath, and that he committed horrific and unspeakable crimes”.

How is it, then, that you could call Paul Bernardo a psychopath on that day—and you repeated it today—and still feel comfortable with your decision?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, when we look at the security classification and we do the process, we can have inmates who may lack remorse or are psychopaths, but we can still manage their behaviour in a medium-security environment.

I think it's important to remember that in a maximum-security environment, over 95% of the inmates who are there are there because of their behaviour. They're assaultive. They're harming other inmates. They're assaulting staff. That's not the case with this particular offender. He can actually be managed in a medium-security environment.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Ms. Kelly, let me build on that, then, if you think he can be rehabilitated in some sense or taken care of.

I'm in receipt of an email that was written to you on June 8 by my constituent, Marcia Penner, to indicate her clear opposition to the decision made by CSC. Marcia was one of the best friends of Kristen French, who was raped and murdered by Bernardo.

In her letter, she wrote:

This “man” is a monster, and one that is beyond rehabilitation. He is a serial pedophile rapist, abductor, and murderer. He has been deemed a dangerous offender. The worst of the worst. If he doesn’t fit the mandatory requirements for maximum security for his entire prison stay, then please tell me who does.

In your email response, you provided a link to the statement you issued on this on June 5. However, what I find more interesting is your boilerplate contact information, which contains this quote: “Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your work with excellence.” I would seriously question whether this transfer decision was excellent.

If it's not Paul Bernardo, which dangerous offender, rapist or serial killer needs to be in a maximum-security institution? If it's not Paul Bernardo—the worst of the worst—who is it?