Public Safety Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay.

[D/Chief Nick Milinovich]

Without getting into the exact.... I could absolutely approximate. We expect that about 60% are being stolen for export and 40% are being revinned and moved around the country or resold under some other nefarious activity. A large percentage is for export.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I suspect Toronto would be similar to those numbers.

[D/Chief Robert Johnson]

That's correct.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Weber, you made a comment early on about the disconnect between the upper echelon of the CBSA and the boots on the ground. It's not the first time that I've heard that about the CBSA. What is the issue and how do you fix it?

[Mark Weber]

I think the people who work the front line need to be consulted. I think the CBSA should look at promoting from within so that you get people who have actually worked at a border previously into positions where they can make decisions on how the border runs. That's currently not the case at the CBSA, and for as long as I've been around. My career started in 2002 with the agency. It's been a long time that we've been operating like that.

As I meet representatives from other police agencies and other unions, it seems to be uniquely a CBSA problem. As a rule, people in positions of authority who are decision-makers in other agencies have worked the front line and have made it up through the ranks. We simply don't do that at the CBSA.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. I was naive. I actually thought that.... Succession planning is a role police agencies employ and that it works well, generally. Does that not happen in the CBSA?

The people in leadership positions now don't have a clue about how things work on the ground.

[Mark Weber]

They “don't have a clue” might be a bit harsh, in some cases.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm direct most of the time.

[Mark Weber]

When we're talking about making policy, no, the upper levels of CBSA management don't come from the front line. It's generally lower-level or mid-level managers who come from the front line.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's unfortunate. I would say that's a fix right there. It's changing your own policies, internally.

Thank you for that.

To the deputies, I know from experience that, early in your training.... We learned about the importance of crime prevention. I haven't been on Public Safety as long as Mr. Garrison has, but over the course of a number of years, I have sat on this committee. We did a study some years back on street checks, or what you would call in Ontario “carding”. We call them “street checks” out west. It was a big deal. It was something being removed as an opportunity for police on the ground to prevent crime or determine the identities of individuals involved in crime. We used them very effectively. I think other agencies have as well.

You talked about things police agencies can or should do to make a difference in prevention. Would something along those lines...? We talked about tools that could assist you in policing, besides more money and bodies. That's always a necessary tool. What do you think are tools that could help in the prevention of...? After they are stolen, in the justice system, we talk about all those things that can be fixed and should be fixed, such as legislation changes.

How do we prevent them from occurring in the first place, if you're just looking at it from a policing perspective and not the manufacturer's or the consumer's?

[D/Chief Nick Milinovich]

Maybe I'll jump in quickly. Then Deputy Johnson can add on.

Prevention, absolutely, is crucial and critical to what we do. I see a policing opportunity from a prevention perspective in building awareness. Last year, the GTA services and Peel held the first auto summit for the GTA to discuss the issue. Then, on the heels of that, we began to promote and share the story with the community. Fast-forward a little less than a year later. Here we are having this conversation on a national level.

The awareness piece is crucial. What that has created for us is consumers looking at the vehicle differently. They're not just asking about comfort and performance statistics. They're also asking about security possibilities. What can that vehicle do to prevent itself from being stolen? The reality is that it's the second-largest purchase a person will make in their life, aside from a house. People are very aware, particularly here in the GTA, that those vehicles and investments are at risk. They're engaging with different types of things.

The awareness is there. I think that's crucial to how we prevent cars from being stolen. It's through consumer action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Milinovich.

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We'll move on to Mr. Schiefke, who is online.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin with Mr. Weber.

First of all, let me thank you and your members for the steadfast work you do, day in and day out, to protect Canadians. I have the honour, as you may know, of hosting the CBSA training facility in the town of Rigaud, which is situated in my community of Vaudreuil—Soulanges. As you said, it has a 600-officer annual capacity.

Over the years, Mr. Weber, I've made a point of visiting them and learning more about why they decided to apply for the CBSA. One of the underlying factors in deciding to apply was their wanting to be part of a family that went to work every single day to better the lives of Canadians, keep Canadians safe and directly combat organized criminal activity. Their work, as I'm sure you would agree, cannot be overstated. The decisions we make as a federal government to support or not support their work are consequential.

It came as a shock to me and my community, as you can imagine, when the previous Conservative government cut 1,100 of their jobs. It didn't just have effects on those who lost their jobs. It had an effect on the mental health of all the other officers, knowing they lost such a huge portion of their extended family. In fact, in 2012, the former president of your union, Jean-Pierre Fortin, commented on the job cuts at the CBSA. He said that the elimination of those jobs represented a “direct attack to our national security and public safety.”

These proposed budget cuts would have a direct and real impact on Canadians and our communities across the country: more child pornography entering the country, more weapons, illegal drugs, will pass through our borders, not to mention terrorists, and sexual predators and hardened criminals....

For the better understanding of Canadians watching, and in layman's terms, can you comment on your former colleague's quote about how CBSA cuts by the previous Conservative government affected your members and the inflow and outflow of contraband and stolen goods?

[Mark Weber]

Yes. I think the quote is accurate. I think it's still apt today. Those cuts happened back in 2013-14, but our numbers have not really gone up since. We've not seen the college or the CBSA have the capacity to get our numbers back to what they need to be.

Really, every time we don't interact with a traveller coming into Canada, it's an opportunity lost. Something could be getting in that we don't want to allow into Canada. Again, I talked about ArriveCAN, but when we see the focus on facilitation, the focus on predeclaration and the focus on allowing people to come into the country without ever speaking to any CBSA officer, I think it's absolutely fair to say that it's a threat to national security. It's all the things you mentioned. There are many we don't want to see coming into the country with no check.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Since 2015, since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was elected, how many jobs have been cut at the CBSA?

[Mark Weber]

As far as I know, no jobs have been cut. Our numbers have not gone up, but none have been cut.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

As a committee, we're hoping that this study finds and presents concrete solutions. You mentioned that more outreach to you and your members would have allowed for solutions to be shared and that the best people to share what they need to do their job better are indeed the CBSA officers. I would agree 100% with you.

You mentioned in your opening remarks the need for more space, as this is an issue shared by your members. Recently, the Minister of Public Safety announced new funding to provide even greater resources, which can be used to acquire new technologies that don't require so much space to use. How important is that type of funding insofar as supporting your members and the work they do is concerned? What else could be provided to help them do their valuable work?

[Mark Weber]

Any funding is welcome. Technologies are useful. Technologies are only useful if you have the officers there to use the technology. At the port of Montreal specifically, the issue right now is space. I'm hoping there will be some money allotted to looking at new facilities and greater room for us to actually examine those exports. As I said earlier, the exports and imports are all done in the same facility, so it's a really tight balancing act.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

My last question is with regard to your comments on needing more capacity to train officers. Based on your knowledge, is it possible to expand on the existing facility? Would that suit the needs of the CBSA, or would we be looking at perhaps constructing or thinking about building a new facility somewhere else?

[Mark Weber]

From my knowledge of the college right now as it's built—I visit there quite often and meet with all the new recruits—I don't really see where you would be expanding at that location. I'm not sure where a new location would go. Certainly, we need more capacity to be able to graduate more than 600 a year.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, and please pass along our thanks as a committee to all your members for their valuable work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.

Ms. Michaud, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Weber, I want to come back to the responsibility of ports, particularly the Port of Montreal, as well as the responsibility of customs officers. We hear that the ports have their own security officers on their territory, but that they can't open the sealed containers. The police do not patrol the ports, but they can open the containers when they have a warrant and therefore have a serious reason to believe that they may contain a stolen item, for example.

The co-operation between all these people seems a little difficult. There may be a lack of communication. I don't know how that co-operation or information sharing could be improved. Do you have any comments on that?

I'm also wondering about the customs procedure. Should it be changed? As you mentioned a little earlier, we pay more attention to what enters the country than to what leaves it. That seems quite normal to me, but CBSA is responsible for transit across the country. Should that be changed?

You may say that you don't have the necessary resources, but let's suppose that we live in an ideal world and that we have all the officers we need to do the job. Should we change the mandate of CBSA slightly to pay particular attention to the scourge of car theft, or do we not want to go down that road? What do you think?

[Mark Weber]

My understanding is that some of the money that's been earmarked is going toward collaborative groups, working with other police agencies. As to how that works specifically at the port of Montreal, my understanding is that for the most part there is great collaboration between the different agencies that are there. Obviously, again, our issue in terms of examinations is space.

If you're talking about looking at the Customs Act and procedurally how we operate, an ability to patrol between ports of entry would be really big for the agency to be doing. Right now, we have the authority to do our job only at ports of entry. When it comes to the border with the United States and anywhere in between, really, in large part we're not really too sure most often what's going on there. When we're looking at keeping things out of the country that we don't want to get in—guns, fentanyl, all those things—that's another big gap.

As I mentioned, there's rail, and we see marine. There's a lot. In an ideal universe, like you said, we would have enough personnel to do all this work. That's something that I think we should be looking at, absolutely.