Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was border.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I'm so sorry to interrupt. I know that two minutes is obviously quite brief and too short.
I now give the floor to Mr. Gill for five minutes.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
I'd like to thank the witnesses for joining us today and answering questions.
I'd like to go quickly to you, Mr. Hamilton.
You mentioned earlier that you don't have the statistics, but you will be able to provide us with the statistics related to the proportion of gun crime that involves illegally imported firearms from the United States. Am I right that you committed to providing these numbers to the committee?
Director General, Traveller, Commercial and Trade Policy Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
We will to the extent that we have them. I believe we have them at the agency, and if we have them, we'll provide them to the committee.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Thank you for confirming that.
I would like to go back to my line of questioning.
Yesterday, a CBC article reported that in a presentation to the immigration minister's office, IRCC, the CBSA and unnamed U.S. partners were seeking the mass cancellation powers contained in Bill C-12 to cancel these applications on a large scale, and it named two specific countries.
Did your department give this presentation to the minister's office?
Tara Lang
Mr. Chair, we are looking for the basis of the presentation. We brief our minister's office regularly on a variety of issues.
That said, what I can say about mass cancellations and briefing the minister is that we have not proposed powers or legislation with a specific group of people or situation in mind.
The intent of this legislation is to ensure the flexibility necessary to respond to situations such as threats to national security, public health, the integrity of our immigration system or other matters of public interest.
Again, I want to say that we are trying to seek the basis of the presentation in the department, but I can say unequivocally that we have not proposed to our minister a situation with a specific set of individuals in mind.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Okay.
Is your department planning on using mass cancellation powers in Bill C-12 to mass cancel applications from specific countries, or was the CBC wrong in its reporting?
Tara Lang
As I mentioned, we do not currently have any plans in mind. The legislation was not created with a group, a nationality, or a set of circumstances in mind. The legislation is drafted for use in exceptional circumstances, and currently there is no recommendation in front of the minister or plans to be using this, as the legislation has not yet passed.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Why did the minister tell the citizenship and immigration committee that you weren't planning on using these mass cancellation powers on specific countries?
Tara Lang
That's absolutely factual. We do not have any current plans at this time, nor were there any at the time of the drafting of the legislation, nor was any country or type of document in mind in the creation of the legislation.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Okay.
Did you direct the minister to mislead the citizenship and immigration committee?
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Did anyone provide you with any advice for avoiding questions that are related to the question today?
Tara Lang
I'm sorry; I don't understand the question.
The minister, when she appeared at CIMM, mentioned that the provisions were not created with any particular use or exceptional circumstances in mind and are not tied to nationality or type of document, and I believe that's what the minister answered.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
Okay.
I would like to understand why Parliament should grant you these powers without any oversight when you are unwilling to answer basic questions that you should be able to clarify here today.
Tara Lang
The oversight mechanisms for the mass authorities rest with the Governor in Council. In the event of an exceptional circumstance—a national security issue, mass fraud, even not a cancellation but a mass extension of applications—the procedure would be that IRCC would write a proposal that would be consulted on with the Department of Justice and other colleagues. It would go to the Governor in Council for review and further consultations. It would result in a potential order in council if the Governor in Council agreed. This would include a transparent process through the Canada Gazette.
Therefore, I believe there are safeguards in place, and we are happy to answer questions about these provisions in the proposed legislation.
Conservative
Sukhman Gill Conservative Abbotsford—South Langley, BC
By asking for these new powers, do the minister and IRCC admit that they have allowed massive fraud and abuse of the immigration system to take place?
Tara Lang
Absolutely not. This is not the purpose of the legislation. This is to strengthen the border and to complement other parts of the bill that allow law enforcement officials and other officials, as demonstrated in this panel, to protect Canadians' security and sovereignty.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you, MP Gill, for these questions.
Madam Acan, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Bill C-12, in part 1 on the Customs Act, strengthens the CBSA's authority to inspect goods destined for export and to access transport and storage facilities to support enforcement and public safety objectives. I understand that this will help to intercept shipments that pose risks.
Building on comments from my colleague MP Ehsassi about auto theft, I would like to ask how this bill addresses organized crime involvement in stolen vehicles and auto parts, and whether it will disrupt those networks while ensuring legitimate trade continues smoothly, especially as southern Ontario and my riding of Oakville West are home to major trade corridors and logistics hubs.
Mr. Hamilton, this is my question for you: With these increased inspection powers under Bill C-12, how is the CBSA planning to avoid unintended commercial delays and cost burdens for regional carriers and businesses? How will technology be adopted in those steps? Are there any mitigation strategies or coordination plans with local stakeholders to ensure enforcement doesn't disrupt trade flow?
Director General, Traveller, Commercial and Trade Policy Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Mr. Chair, I'll try to answer the question at a very broad level. I'm not an expert in CBSA operations and I don't manage an operational team.
I do know there's a considerable amount of coordination on the ground between our regional directors general and our regional directors who manage most specific engagement. A lot of coordination takes place, not only with respect to the private sector entities that you're talking about, such as the rail yards, but also with police forces. That takes place not only in terms of enforcement action but also in the intelligence exchange and information sharing that enables those enforcement activities.
I would say that the heart of your question asks how these measures can best address organized crime and its exploitation of our transportation and trading networks for profit. I would point to section 97, which is being changed within the Customs Act to allow clarity with respect to the CBSA's access to goods that are destined for export, both in warehouses and on transporters' premises. Those authorities will allow early intervention from CBSA officers into those situations to identify goods such as stolen vehicles that are being loaded into railcars at switching yards before they're shipped out of the region to a port of entry to get onto a boat to go overseas. Those will be very important for us.
As part of Canada's national plan to address auto theft, as well as through investments made under the Canada border action plan, a number of new technologies are being acquired by the CBSA to allow a more nimble, mobile process to do imaging of railcars as they're moving through the system. Those will allow us to do the inspections in a more timely manner and will also reduce delays within the transportation system.
We're very cognizant of not wanting to disrupt legitimate flows but also of wanting to be able to have the technology to scan and intervene when necessary. That's enabled by the provisions in Bill C-12.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
Thank you very much.
What internal systems or audits will monitor the proper use of these new authorities?
Director General, Traveller, Commercial and Trade Policy Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
There are no proposed internal mechanisms to audit the use of these new authorities. They will be subject to the overall external audit review and to processes that already exist within the CBSA. There's nothing new that is being proposed today that would be excluded from the current systems of accountability that they have at the agency.
Liberal
Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Bush, Canadians are looking for reassurance that our border and immigration systems are secure, fair and responsive. I would like to ask about how Bill C-12 would strengthen those goals.
One of the key concerns for Canadians is the rise of transnational organized crime, including fentanyl trafficking. Can you speak to how the new inspection and enforcement powers under Bill C-12 would help CBSA to disrupt these networks more effectively at the border?
Director General, Immigration and Asylum Policy Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Mr. Chair, on the inspection powers, I will refer to Mr. Hamilton to speak to that.
The immigration authorities themselves are designed around dealing with streamlining the processes in asylum, as the other Mr. Hamilton has already spoken about today. They're not designed around dealing with transnational organized crime. There are already authorities in IRPA for identifying and determining people inadmissible under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act if they are involved in transnational organized crime activities. We are not seeking new authorities in Bill C-12 for that particular purpose as it relates to immigration and combatting transnational organized crime.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you, Ms. Acan.
For your information, the following items will be discussed at the next meetings. This Thursday, November 6, the Minister of Public Safety will appear for two separate hours—one hour on Bill C‑8 and one hour on Bill C‑12.
After we return from constituency week, we will hold a two-hour meeting on November 18 on Bill C‑12. On November 20, the following Thursday, there will be another meeting on Bill C‑12. Incidentally, any amendments to this bill must be submitted by November 21, which is a Friday.
The following Tuesday, November 25, we will spend one hour hearing the remaining testimony and one hour studying Bill C‑12. Those two hours will be immediately followed by clause-by-clause consideration. I remind all members that this work must be completed by November 25.
On November 27, we will return to the border management study for one final meeting with witnesses. At the same time, we will have a work plan to propose to the analysts.
The following week, we will hold at least two meetings on the motion concerning foreign nationals, after which we will resume work on Bill C‑8.
Given the time, I am adjourning the meeting.