Evidence of meeting #21 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was telecommunications.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Arbour  Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry

Andre Arbour

Yes. The telecom act doesn't allow for regulation of speech. However, to provide for the greater certainty that you're seeking, proposed section 15.02 absolutely spells that out in plain language. It's just that, when you add proposed section 15.01 on top of that and the specific wording of proposed section 15.01, then you have issues.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Could I just have one moment, please?

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

We'll suspend for just a second to give the MP the time needed.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

We are resuming the meeting.

Is there any further debate?

Are there any other questions, input or arguments?

MP Caputo, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

We may be able to deal with the amendment. I don't know if we need a recorded vote, or on division, and then to move to the main amendment.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Okay.

Is there any other input? I see none.

(Subamendment agreed to on division [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

This brings us back to the amendment.

Is there any other input on the amendment as amended?

We will systematically do recorded votes to make sure the vote count is in the record.

We'll take the recorded vote on the amended version of amendment CPC‑1.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the amended version of amendment CPC‑1?

(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 9; nays 0) [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

This brings us to another amendment.

Is there a mover for amendment CPC‑2?

Mr. Caputo, you have the floor.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I move amendment CPC‑2.

I will speak to this amendment, which is really critical, in my view.

Before I begin, I think we can agree that the act provides substantial power to the minister. At the end of the day, though, that power has to be checked, and there really are a couple of ways to check it.

What the act does now is an ex post facto, or after the fact, review. In other words, there is a method to judicially review the act and when that happens, a judge says that, yes, the exercise of authority under the act was appropriate or, no, it wasn't, but that happens after.

My position, our position, is that the review, where possible, should occur beforehand. In other words, when there is time to get judicial authorization, then judicial authorization should occur, so that the exercise of considerable power is not just reviewed; it is at the outset conferred upon the court, which is independence. In that case, when there is an opportunity to do so, we will have an assurance that an independent body has reviewed the ministerial proposal and what is proposed to be done pursuant to the act, and they can give a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down. I think that is actually much more prudent than reviewing it after the fact.

We review things after the fact in this country all the time. As we have recently seen.... Sometimes we do see it and sometimes we don't, but sometimes we see that mistakes are made. I think we should actually be trying to address those mistakes before they are made.

There is one thing I would like to ask the officials, and I hope I spoke clearly on this. Could a clause like this work in conjunction, perhaps, with some sort of ex parte requirement wherein if it isn't practicable, if time is of the essence...but where it is practicable, we could address it through this sort of judicial authorization?

I'd love to get the officials' input on that, please.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

I have to cut you off, Mr. Caputo.

I have a ruling to make before we open up the debate on CPC-2.

As you know, Bill C‑8 amends the Telecommunications Act by giving new powers to the Governor in Council and the minister to issue orders under subsections 15(1) and 15(2).

The purpose of amendment CPC‑2 is to amend the bill by requiring that the Governor in Council and the minister obtain legal authorization before issuing these orders, which could be subject to court-imposed conditions.

As stated in section 16.74 of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, fourth edition: “An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

It is the chair's opinion that the introduction of judicial authorization prior to the issuance of orders is a new concept that goes beyond the scope of the bill. Therefore, I rule this amendment inadmissible.

Mr. Caputo.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

With the greatest of respect, Chair, I would like to challenge your decision.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

There is a challenge to the decision of the chair, which brings us to an immediate vote.

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 5; yeas 4)

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

The chair's ruling has been overturned, so we'll begin the debate on amendment CPC‑2. Are there any members who wish to speak?

Ms. Acan, you have the floor.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I do have some comments.

As we all know, during the committee's studies we have heard several times from the experts in this field that cyber-threats move at digital speed, often requiring immediate mitigation. Requiring a judge to sign off on every technical order would definitely cause major delays in the government's ability to respond, especially to an active attack. By the time a court application was processed, damage to telecommunications systems could be irreversible.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Do you have a point of order, MP Caputo?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Yes. Are we dealing with an amendment here?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Yes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Which amendment was moved?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

It was CPC-2.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I thought you just ruled it out of order.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Yes, except that my decision wasn't sustained.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

Oh, it was not sustained. Oh, my gosh. I am so sorry.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Do you regret voting against me?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC

I thought Madame DeBellefeuille voted yes. I am sorry.

I'm sorry, Ms. Acan. I apologize for interrupting you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Sima Acan Liberal Oakville West, ON

No problem, Mr. Caputo.

That gives me the chance to repeat my sentence.

Again, cyber-attacks move very fast, and in most cases when there's an active attack, the government will not have the chance to move forward while waiting for the court's decision. At that point, by the time a court application was processed, the damage to telecommunications systems could be irreversible.

Additionally, it would also create significant new burdens on the Federal Court. That's the legal side, but I'm more concerned with the technical side. That's my point.

Thank you.