Public Safety Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Thank you for joining us.

Welcome, members, to the third meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to the motion we adopted last Thursday, September 18, the committee is meeting today to study Canada-United States border management.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, in accordance with the Standing Orders. Members may participate in person or remotely via Zoom.

The clerk, who is sitting in for Mr. Wilson, and I will manage the speaking order as best we can to enable a constructive and useful discussion. Thank you, as always, for your patience and understanding.

I would now like to welcome our distinguished witnesses.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Jennifer Lutfallah, vice-president, commercial and trade branch, and Aaron McCrorie, vice-president, intelligence and enforcement.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Shannon Grainger, senior assistant deputy minister, portfolio affairs and communications, and Mike McGuire, director general, international and border policy.

From the Privy Council Office, we have Gerard Peets, deputy commissioner, Canada’s fight against fentanyl.

Lastly, we have three representatives from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Assistant Commissioner Derek Santosuosso, Chief Superintendent Jamie McGowan and Sean McGillis, executive director, federal policing.

What we'll do now is have four of the witnesses each present a five-minute opening speech, which will be followed by a series of questions and answers directed by members of Parliament.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you raised your hand. Do you wish to speak?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

For the record, I want to say how disappointed I am that, once again, interpretation for this committee meeting is being done remotely. During the first meeting, there were interpreters in the booth. For a unilingual francophone like myself, it's much more efficient when the interpreters are in the booth. Those who do the interpretation remotely are good too. I'm not questioning their skill at all. However, I would like arrangements to be made for interpretation not to be done remotely for the entirety of the parliamentary session. To reiterate, I have no issue with the quality of the interpreters working remotely; it's a proximity issue.

Mr. Chair, would you be able to arrange that on behalf of the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I certainly will.

The clerk will update us on this issue next Thursday. At that point, we'll see what conditions must be in place to facilitate interpretation. It's probably easier for the interpreters to do their work on site as well, whenever possible.

Thank you, Madame DeBellefeuille, for that important point, which I'm sure is also relevant for English speakers, those who prefer to listen to the English interpretation. As we noticed last week, this is going to be very much both in French and in English, so good interpretation will be key for every member of the committee.

This leads me to invite Monsieur Aaron McCrorie to start the presentations.

[Aaron McCrorie, Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I am Aaron McCrorie, the vice-president of CBSA's intelligence and enforcement branch. I am joined by my colleague Jennifer Lutfallah, the vice-president of our commercial and trade branch. I welcome this opportunity to share with committee members insights on border management between Canada and the United States.

The Canada Border Services Agency is the country's first line of defence at 1,200 ports of entry. I am proud of our employees' conscientious work and dedication as well as their ability to adapt and respond to constantly evolving threats.

The agency has about 8,500 frontline employees, supported by intelligence and targeting teams that stay current on global trends, patterns and means of concealment, to ensure that we are well equipped to identify and prevent contraband, firearms and bad actors from entering Canada. The CBSA also employs criminal investigators, who investigate individuals and businesses that commit serious offences against Canada's border and border legislation. Abroad, the agency employs officers at 42 missions in 36 countries, who help push our border out.

Fighting transnational organized crime takes collaboration and multi-jurisdictional co-operation, and it would be unrealistic to think that any one agency, or even one country, could completely thwart their efforts. That is why collaboration and working in lockstep with the RCMP, as well as other domestic and international law enforcement partners, are essential to strengthen public safety and protect the integrity of our border.

By ensuring timely, effective intelligence sharing and cross-border co-operation, Canada and the United States can better track, disrupt and dismantle criminal networks.

The CBSA and the U.S. CBP have a long-standing and effective working relationship, which continues to this day. For example, we each have officers embedded in our respective targeting centres, and we always share intelligence. The agency regularly meets and collaborates with the U.S. CBP to discuss our countries' ongoing collaboration efforts, strong commitment to border security and strategic alignment going forward.

The Government of Canada recognizes that we have a strong border, but we can make it stronger.

Canada's border plan invests over $355 million to help the CBSA bolster its front line and get the latest tools and technology to stop drugs and firearms. So far, as part of this investment, the agency has more new officers being trained at the CBSA College, who will be deployed to ports of entry by the end of 2025, increasing the agency's examination capacity, with more officers to be hired over a six-year period.

The CBSA has created special investigation and examination for greater enforcement capacity. This included Operation Blizzard, a month-long cross-country operation to intercept fentanyl and other illegal drugs at the border, resulting in over 2,600 seizures of narcotics and precursors. The agency will continue to allocate funding for these targeted operations in the weeks and months ahead.

The CBSA has spent over $6 million for large-scale imaging or X-ray systems and committed another $31 million for a range of other equipment. The CBSA is also in the process of procuring new detection technology tools that will enhance our ability to detect and identify illegal synthetic drugs and precursor chemicals at the border. These investments include imaging and trace detection tools, regional satellite laboratories and hand-held chemical analyzers, with an additional $24 million of equipment planned for delivery in 2026, and more in the following years.

In terms of removals, from April 1 to September 15 this year the CBSA removed 10,585 inadmissible people. The border plan provided funding for the CBSA to increase the rate at which it removes inadmissible people from Canada.

To reach this target, CBSA has hired approximately 30 additional frontline personnel.

The agency is taking steps toward meeting its commitment to completing 20,000 removals by March 31, 2026, and maintaining that cadence the following fiscal year.

In collaboration with our partners, we are committed to keep working to strengthen our border security.

Jennifer and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. McCrorie.

Did you want to say something, Mrs. DeBellefeuille?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

I just want to check something, Mr. Chair. Did all of the witnesses provide their briefs to the interpreters?

We just heard a speech that was entirely in English, and I want to be sure the interpreters have those briefs. It would make their work easier.

Also, it will be pretty difficult for me if all the witnesses speak only in English. I was expecting part of their remarks to be in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

That's a very good question.

The clerk tells me that the speaking notes were not received in time to be given to the interpreters. That causes interpretation problems we need to take into account. I should point out that this is the beginning of a new parliamentary session, so there are some new ways of doing things, but we certainly do have to get off to a good start.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Could we ask the witnesses, especially public servants, to send their speaking notes in advance to enable better interpretation? That's particularly important when interpretation is happening remotely, as it is today.

Could we also ask the rest of the witnesses to speak a bit of French? I would be very grateful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Very good. I've taken that under advisement. We'll follow up with the clerk's office.

We'll suspend the meeting for a moment so we can get the speaking notes to the interpreters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Let's resume.

I'm letting the interpreters know that they'll soon be getting speaking notes, if they haven't already, for Ms. Grainger, the Public Safety Canada representative who will be speaking shortly, and Mr. Peets, who will then speak on behalf of the Privy Council Office. We haven't received notes from the RCMP representatives, so we can't provide those.

Ms. Grainger, you have the floor.

[Shannon Grainger, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Portfolio Affairs and Communications, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for inviting us to speak today.

My name is Shannon Grainger. I'm the senior assistant deputy minister responsible for international affairs, including border policy, at Public Safety Canada. I am pleased to be here today along with my colleagues from throughout the portfolio to talk about our ongoing work to manage our border.

Public Safety Canada, in particular, plays a central and strategic role in border management, focusing on policy leadership, coordination and resource allocation to ensure both national security and the smooth flow of goods and travellers. We work closely with the agency colleagues represented here, as well as with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Canada and the United States share the longest land border in the world. Our two countries have a long-standing history of working together to keep our border secure while enabling the efficient flow of goods and people.

Both countries face similar challenges, including irregular migration, human smuggling and illegal drug and firearms trafficking fuelled by organized crime. To successfully tackle these challenges, we have worked together with our American counterparts, and we do this at both policy and operational levels.

Public Safety Canada is the main Canadian interlocutor with the United States Department of Homeland Security, or DHS. We engage with them to set the overall policy frame for Canada-U.S. border co-operation. This relationship is important because DHS oversees the American operational agencies, primarily U.S. Customs and Border Protection, or CBP, which is responsible for border management. While they are not here today, my colleagues at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada also play a role in interactions with our DHS counterparts on matters related to cross-border migration.

I recently met with my new counterpart from the Department of Homeland Security in Washington, D.C., and I can report that there is significant alignment on the work we are doing to secure the border and where we can do more.

Importantly, there is acknowledgement by both Canadian and American officials that Canada's $1.3-billion border plan, announced last December, is making a difference and showing results.

Both Canada and the U.S. have increased the number of resources assigned to the border and are making investments in new technology and equipment to improve surveillance and detection.

Southbound irregular migration has decreased by 99% since last summer, thanks to joint efforts at the border and upstream work by our IRCC colleagues to ensure travel document integrity.

It is also clear that the fight against fentanyl is a common cause that both countries need to work on together, not something that divides us. U.S. data consistently shows that less than 1% of fentanyl seized in the U.S. comes from Canada.

What this illustrates is that border management is a joint endeavour, and that while the U.S. may look to Canada to address issues related to migration and drugs, Canada is also looking to the U.S. to address challenges with illegal drugs and firearms coming north. This is why our day-to-day co-operation with them is so important and why having a strong working relationship at all levels remains a priority.

It is also why there are many examples of long-standing Canada-U.S. co-operation in border management. Pre-clearance operations are just one example exemplifying bilateral co-operation at the border, with eight of Canada's largest airports hosting U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers who pre-clear Canadians so that they can arrive in the U.S. as domestic travellers. This provides significant economic and security benefits to both countries.

Also, on a personal note, under this program, roughly 400 U.S. officers are posted to Canada. They live here with their families, who attend our schools and are part of our local community. This is just one example of the kind of integration we have with our American counterparts.

Finally, as you know, the Government of Canada has introduced Bill C-2, the strong borders act, to ensure that law enforcement has the legislative tools to keep our borders secure, combat transnational organized crime, and crack down on money laundering. Many of the measures proposed in the bill will also support shared Canada-U.S. objectives.

With that, I will now turn to my other colleagues to speak to the roles of their agencies.

My colleague Mr. McGuire and I look forward to taking your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Ms. Grainger.

I'll now give the floor to the representative of the Privy Council Office, Gerard Peets.

[Gerard Peets, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canada’s Fight Against Fentanyl, Privy Council Office]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee, for having me here today.

My name is Gerard Peets, and I'm the deputy commissioner for Canada's fight against fentanyl. I lead a team at the Privy Council Office in direct support of the fentanyl czar, or the commissioner for Canada's fight against fentanyl, Kevin Brosseau. The office was created in February 2025 to lead Canada's response to the scourge of fentanyl, which claims over 20 lives each and every day. Established within the PCO, the core function of the fentanyl czar is to align efforts in support of this urgent, complex and multi-faceted fight.

I'd like to start with some information about fentanyl and the illegal fentanyl trade.

Fentanyl is a deadlier drug than any that came before it. As a synthetic opioid, it can be made anywhere, and made cheaply. Because it is so potent—between 20 and 40 times as potent as heroin—it can be sold in small quantities and is therefore easy to ship. Its potency also means that it is highly addictive and difficult to stop using. And of course, its potency means that even small quantities can be deadly.

For the most part, fentanyl consumed in Canada is produced from precursor chemicals that are imported into the country, with a significant source being China. Many of these chemicals have legitimate uses, but they are being diverted to produce fentanyl.

It's important to note that while Canada and the U.S. are each experiencing their own domestic fentanyl crisis, Canada is not the source of the U.S. fentanyl crisis. Based on volumes of seized fentanyl reported by U.S. Customs and Border Protection since 2022, about one-tenth of 1% of fentanyl seized is attributable to the U.S.'s northern border region. Nevertheless, both Canada and the U.S. are confronting the fentanyl crisis in our respective countries, and it is vitally important that we work together in doing so.

A key interlocutor for the fentanyl czar and our office is the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy. The ONDCP coordinates across 19 federal agencies to provide a whole-of-government approach to addressing addiction in the U.S. The fentanyl czar engages regularly with ONDCP and many other counterparts in the U.S., Mexico and other countries, both to advocate for Canada and to better understand their priorities and identify opportunities for collaboration. In those exchanges, we can report that our U.S. counterparts appreciate and value the actions that Canada has taken, and continues to take, to fight the scourge of fentanyl.

Our partners here today, the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canada Border Services Agency, have a long and established track record of exemplary collaboration with U.S. officials.

New measures—whether they be investments in our border or domestic law enforcement, or legislative, like Bill C‑2—are geared toward serving Canadians, but they are also welcomed and watched closely by our U.S. counterparts.

Here in Canada, our work at the office of the fentanyl czar includes close collaboration with Health Canada to respond to the demand for illegal opioids, although no representatives from the department are here today.

Health Canada leads on the Controlled Drugs and Substances Strategy, which is the federal framework that guides Canada's approach to substance use through four integrated pillars: prevention, treatment, harm reduction and enforcement.

While broader than fentanyl, the CDSS is a foundation of federal efforts to address the demand side of the fentanyl crisis—how to help those facing addiction. The fentanyl czar and his team work with Health Canada in pursuit of this goal, in partnership with many others. This notably includes the provinces and territories, which bear primary responsibility for health care, social services and policing.

We also talk to frontline and community workers, including people who are delivering valuable services to provide treatment and the hope of recovery to those facing addiction. We work with domestic law enforcement in their tireless effort to keep people safe from the effects of the fentanyl crisis within communities. More information on what we've heard from these and other groups is available in the interim report of Canada's fentanyl czar, which is available on the Privy Council Office website.

In closing, it is a privilege to be here today. I look forward to supporting you in your study in any way I can.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Peets.

I would now like to invite Sean McGillis, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, to conclude the opening remarks.

[Sean McGillis, Executive Director, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I will make my remarks in English this morning to simplify interpretation. Afterwards, I will be able to answer questions in French, if the committee has any.

I would first like to acknowledge I am speaking today on the traditional and unceded lands of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before you, alongside my colleagues from the Canada Border Services Agency, Public Safety and the Privy Council Office, to speak about Canada-U.S. border management.

My name is Sean McGillis. I am the assistant deputy minister of federal policing strategy and business management. I am joined today by my colleagues Chief Superintendent McGowan from our federal policing border integrity program and Assistant Commissioner Santosuosso from our specialized policing services.

Border integrity is a shared priority for both Canada and the United States that requires strong co-operation between the RCMP and U.S. law enforcement agencies. Canada and the U.S. are contending with new threats to border security marked by global instability and shifting migration patterns, which are being exploited by organized crime groups. It is therefore essential that Canadian and U.S. law enforcement agencies maintain their collaborative and effective partnerships to preserve our shared border.

The RCMP works adeptly with its portfolio partners, law enforcement agencies and indigenous partners across the country to ensure operational readiness to address any border challenges.

The RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency hold a shared responsibility for securing Canada's borders from inbound and outbound criminal threats. The CBSA manages the access of people and goods to and from Canada at our ports of entry, whereas the RCMP is responsible for securing our borders between the official ports of entry.

The RCMP's duties and authorities related to border security are identified in the RCMP Act and regulations, the Customs Act and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and regulations. The RCMP's federal policing program conducts investigations related to cross-border offences such as illegal entries; human, drug and firearm trafficking; and other illicit activities.

As you are aware, Bill C-2, the strong borders act, was introduced in the House of Commons by the Minister of Public Safety in May of this year. Bill C-2 represents the next step in Canada's border plan and proposes a suite of measures that will support three pillars.

The first is securing the border. This includes amendments to the Customs Act, the Oceans Act, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration Act and the Sex Offender Information Registration Act.

The second pillar is combatting transnational and organized crime and fentanyl. This includes amendments to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act and the Criminal Code and introduces the supporting authorized access to information act.

The third is disrupting illicit financing. This includes amendments to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Act.

In parallel, the RCMP continues to advance several initiatives under Canada's border plan as part of its commitment to detect, investigate and disrupt the most significant criminal threats to public safety in Canada.

The RCMP has deployed an aerial intelligence task force comprising helicopters, drones and mobile surveillance towers to monitor between the ports of entry and ensure rapid response to any border incidents.

The RCMP is also advancing efforts with U.S. partners to implement a North American joint strike force to target organized crime and the trafficking of precursor chemicals and illegal substances, including fentanyl. This initiative includes teams of law enforcement, border security and intelligence professionals across Canada and the United States. It will also involve new resources and frontline personnel, as well as technical operations capacity and infrastructure. The strike force complements and builds on existing operational efforts to tackle fentanyl across intelligence to criminal operations, both domestic and international, acting as a force multiplier.

Recognizing that money laundering underpins most criminal activity, including fentanyl trafficking, the integrated money laundering intelligence partnership was established in support of the permissible sharing of money laundering and organized crime intelligence between the RCMP and Canada's big banks.

In addition, the newly established joint operational intelligence cell is actively bringing together security agencies and key law enforcement partners to bolster the broader flow of intelligence on transnational organized crime and fentanyl.

To conclude, the current global landscape pushes us to recognize that border management is not simply about managing the movement of people or goods across the border. It's about ensuring that law enforcement has the right tools to keep our borders secure, combat transnational organized crime and stop the flow of illegal fentanyl.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I look forward to discussing Canada-U.S. border management.

My colleagues and I will be pleased to take any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

That's wonderful.

Thank you for those inputs.

We will now move to questions and observations from members of Parliament.

We will follow the order and speaking times established by the rules we adopted last June. For the first round, the Conservative Party representatives will have the floor first, for six minutes each, followed by the Liberal members and the Bloc Québécois member, who will also have six minutes. Then there will be a second round and probably subsequent rounds, the details of which I will provide a little later.

We'll start with representatives from the Conservative caucus.

Mr. Lloyd, you will be the first to speak.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Peets, you stated that it was identified that only one-tenth of 1% of the fentanyl seized in the United States was attributed to be from north of the border. My question is this: Was that fentanyl that was seized at the border, or was that all fentanyl that was seized in the United States?

[Gerard Peets]

That is an excellent question.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection maintains a website that can be accessed publicly. It is possible to download data on fentanyl seizures as well as other kinds of—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

I'm sorry. I have limited time. I just want to know if that was fentanyl that was seized specifically at the border or if that was the total fentanyl seized within the United States itself.

[Gerard Peets]

It was fentanyl seized in what they refer to as the northern border region.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

So in terms of fentanyl seized at the northern border, they say that only one-tenth of 1% was attributed to be from Canada, and yet that's one-tenth of 1% coming from the northern border, out of the total amount of fentanyl seized.

[Gerard Peets]

What they do is provide numbers about fentanyl seized in the northern border region, and they provide numbers about fentanyl seized in the southern border region.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

I see.

[Gerard Peets]

When you do the division, over that period of time, you get 0.01%, or one-tenth of 1%.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Parkland, AB]

So we can't know about the total supply. We know that there is more fentanyl being seized at the southern border than at the northern border, but is it possible that we're just not catching the fentanyl at the northern border and it's skewing the statistics to be lower at the northern border?