Public Safety Committee on Oct. 7th, 2025

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It's still the case that we don't do rail at all.

In my community of Oshawa, we have two rail lines that come right through: CN and CPKC. We need to be able to do that.

Would you say criminals know where our blind spot is then?

[Mark Weber]

It would be very naive to think that they don't.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It would be fair to say they absolutely know that rail is our blind spot, that they are using it now and we're doing nothing about it.

[Mark Weber]

I've never asked one, but I would be shocked if they do not.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you. That's fair.

I have a couple more seconds. I'm sorry I keep bouncing back and forth.

Ms. Dawson, you called for the strengthening of Bill C-2, I believe. Could you possibly give us some weaknesses you see in the current legislation and tell us how they could change for the better?

[Laura Dawson]

Sure. The most important part of that bill, from my perspective, is the ability to share information across jurisdictions effectively and well. The challenge, of course, is who pays for it. Off-loading those expenses to the operators—to the private sector—is the biggest challenge that I'm hearing from my members.

I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kirkland.

Mr. Ramsay, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Mr. Weber, good morning.

Although I would be inclined to agree with you that we need agents on the front line, there's also an implication here that I find a bit challenging. It's that technology implies better detection. It implies more work for our agents. It may be work that is better attributed.

What would you say about this comment?

[Mark Weber]

It's a bit difficult. Technology is absolutely useful as long as the technology is there to assist the officer doing the work. When you get to the point where the technology is just replacing the officer and where you're relying on people to self-declare to the technology, you're not going to find anything.

You gather intelligence through interviews. You gather intelligence through searches. We're not doing that anymore. We're relying on people to come in and self-declare. It's the help of the technology aspect that's missing. It shouldn't be replacing the human element. No machine is going to detain someone, arrest someone or really find anything. You need the person there to do that.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Is it realistic to think we can filter everybody who comes into an airport with an individual questionnaire? Should we not rely instead on information we get ahead? That would allow better intelligence to allow us to detect criminal activity.

[Mark Weber]

The information provided ahead is exactly the declaration form that was completed when you landed previously at an airport. Previously, every person would present a declaration form to an officer, who would look it over and ask one or two questions for the most part, and then on you went or you went for a search. Now, everyone self-declares to a machine. Of course, no one is ever going to self-declare that they're bringing in something they shouldn't. The machine spits out a card and out the door they go.

We are supposed to have roving teams that will randomly interview people and do random searches and such. That has almost disappeared. We don't have the staff to do that. For the most part, we're relying on people to self-declare, which is never going to happen.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

How much time is needed to train an agent to be efficient?

[Mark Weber]

“Trained” and “efficient” are two different things. The training program is 18 weeks. The apprenticeship is one year. To be any good at what you're doing, I'd say it's four to five years.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

You elaborated on the lack of confidence in the CBSA. What do we need to do to build confidence back into CBSA agents?

[Mark Weber]

You need to start properly staffing with the officers who do the work. Right now, we are absolutely drowning in middle management. We have ports of entry with more managers than officers. Managers don't process travellers. That's extremely common at the CBSA.

The other thing is we're not an organization that promotes from within. If you look at other law enforcement agencies, the people in positions to make decisions have all come from the line. They've worked as officers. They know the workplaces. They know the job. CBSA is unique in that it does not do that. We parachute people in from outside, so the people who are in a position to decide how the border is going to operate have never worked at a border.

In terms of confidence from our membership—the officers—in how the border is operating, it's close to zero. You often have to explain to upper management how borders work, as though you're explaining it to someone who's never travelled in an airport or who doesn't know how a land border works.

I'm trying to use my words carefully. It's really shocking at times. These are the people deciding how our border works.

[Jacques Ramsay, Liberal, La Prairie—Atateken, QC]

Ms. Dawson, Mr. Nohara has spoken at length about motion detection at the border, but we all know that our intelligence services are key to effective action and work at the border.

Could you tell us more about what is needed to improve our intelligence services?

[Laura Dawson]

I've done interviews with people in the national detection centre in Canada and the national detection centre in the United States, and the differences could not be greater. The tools available to the Canadians simply tie their hands.

Mr. Weber will know better than I do, but there are something like 100 different laws and rules that have to be evaluated by a single border official at the moment he or she makes contact. We want to stretch out that process so they get the information in advance.

Rather than looking at things at a single moment in time, we want to do a social network analysis to know more about the shipper and their previous dealings, not just what their container looks like at this moment. Who are their associates? Who are they associated with? We want to know what crossings this person has made before. Do they make frequent crossings? Where are they? Are they by land or by air?

If we give the officers the tools they need, that long-range or upstream view, and share that information with the United States, where it's appropriate, we can have a robust picture of where things are going and can make a risk assessment and identify that a given person goes in a green box. If they do something that catches the attention of an individual officer—whom they should be meeting with—then they can be taken to secondary.

If you don't effectively screen for risk management, then everyone is high risk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would ask for short answers to my short questions, because I don’t have much speaking time.

Mr. Weber, you said that the CBSA college in Rigaud was the only border guard training school in Canada. Is that correct?

[Mark Weber]

Yes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

You also said that the training lasts 18 weeks. Is that correct?

[Mark Weber]

Yes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

The school’s capacity is approximately 572 students per year, is that correct?

[Mark Weber]

Yes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

The government has committed to hiring 1,000 new officers over three years. That would mean that approximately 330 new officers would be added to the approximately 575 officers currently being trained.

Do the government and the Canada Border Services Agency currently have everything they need to train 300 more officers per year?