Science and Research Committee on Nov. 28th, 2024

[Dr. Christopher Dummitt]

Am I optimistic that something can be done? No.

Is there something that can be done? I think you can factor this into a whole host of things in institutional higher education funding. Make those research funding decisions really based on the research. If there's a political officer in the room assessing the politics of these things, ensure that they're thinking more than about party politics, that they're thinking about the small-p political elements that will enter into research funding decisions, especially in the humanities and social sciences. It's not about someone saying, “I don't like that person, because they're a Liberal or a Conservative.” That's not the issue. It's about the under-guiding cultural assumptions that operate in certain groups. When an institution is, as we found, almost 90% made up of people from certain political perspectives, it is impossible that that organization is not going to be troubled by these concerns and biases.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Dummitt, some researchers argue that adopting DEI policies could limit academic freedom because it puts restrictions on the selection of research projects. Do those potential restrictions worry you, as well?

What can be done to ease those tensions?

[Dr. Christopher Dummitt]

In particular, I think there should be a lot of research about DEI. I know just this week there was a research report out of a U.S. institute that talked about the incredibly counterintuitive, negative implications of certain kinds of DEI training. The report was...that this didn't get reported in The New York Times, because it fell offside. I think that kind of thing is happening for researchers in Canada all the time. They would be reluctant to take on this research.

I'm a full professor. It's a lovely job. It's tenured, and it's a great thing. However, if I were recommending to a young graduate student who wanted to come into the field, I would absolutely not recommend that they take a position that is critical of DEI. They would be guaranteeing that they wouldn't get research funding and they wouldn't get a job.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Is there any evidence or science showing that DEI policies lead to less bias and bring about changes in behaviour?

[Dr. Christopher Dummitt]

Well, you're slightly going beyond my expertise, so I'll just say that right at the outset.

I am a member of a U.S.-based organization called Heterodox Academy, which is really committed to universities as non-partisan, truth-seeking institutions. They've done a lot of research out of that institution that talks about the ineffectiveness of DEI, and a host of different kinds of DEI training, in actually reducing discrimination. There is some evidence, as I understand it, that some kinds of training can actually make things worse and can lead to worse climates. I won't pretend to be an expert on that, but I know of research on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

We're out of time, in any case. Thank you.

Now we turn to MP Cannings for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Dr. O'Donnell, you gave the example of digital humanists and the funding they've been getting and how it has shifted over the years. You're from a smaller institution, the University of Lethbridge, but you're saying more of it is going to U15 universities now. Is there any logical explanation for that, other than some bias towards big research universities? The usual thing we hear in this committee is that U15 universities have bigger, better infrastructure. I'm wondering if, maybe, the digital world of digital humanists...the “digital” part has become more complex and expensive. What's your explanation for that?

[Dr. Daniel O'Donnell]

Well, it's actually very much tied, I think, to the discussion of viewpoint diversity that we're having here. The idea that, 15 years ago, digital humanities were being, essentially, run out of smaller universities.... It was not just a Canadian thing. If you look at the universities in the States, for example, the most dominant universities in digital humanities were in places like Nebraska, not at Yale. One reason for that was the ability and freedom to experiment, which you had in smaller universities at the time.

I think the reason things changed is not that we're losing at tri-agency.... I'm in the humanities. I'm an English professor. I have had over a million dollars in grants during my career—which, for a humanist, is not a bad number—but like I said, I have an untenured adjunct professor who became the lead on a 40-year-old project now in digital humanities. Exactly to the point that my colleague was making, she brought it to us as an adjunct. Hiring her in our department in order to keep the five graduate students she brought—this $300,000 grant would increase my faculty complement, in the department that I chair, by about 12%—that's a huge ask compared to the University of Alberta or the University of Toronto.

I think the issue that's really coming.... The bigger universities in digital humanities were behind the curve in the beginning because these are big departments that are, in many fields, fairly consensus-based, and it was the smaller departments, where you had a bit more intellectual freedom to pursue things quickly and early, that developed the field. However, it's much easier for a big university to play catch-up, and it's absolutely the case that a big university is never going to lose an insight grant because they can't create a position for somebody. I think that's where it's coming.... It's not even the size of the equipment that you have; it's the scale.

Ironically, smaller universities.... The description of how block grants or how grant overhead is paid earlier is not anything that I am aware of. Normally, what happens in Canada is that you get a block grant that's given to your university based on your success in funding. I think that about $7 million is the tipping point. Below that, you get less money, and you also don't get a percentage the same way as you would at a big university, when it really should be the other way around because the cost of maintaining a grant at a small university in relation to the overall size of the pot is massively different.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Mr. Pardy, you basically talked about defunding universities, university research. The business of universities, you said, is getting government money. You said they're “chronic welfare recipients”. This “corrupts” the university enterprise and whoever “pays the piper calls the tune”, with all the strings attached. I guess I'm left wondering where universities should go for this funding, then, and how that will stop the corruption.

[Bruce Pardy]

Well, I think we should start with the division of powers in the Canadian Constitution. Education, including higher education, is a provincial matter of jurisdiction. I don't understand why the federal government is involved in this. Surely, it's—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but do you think that provincial governments would have fewer strings? I can see there may be different strings if I were applying for funding in Alberta versus British Columbia, for instance—I'm from British Columbia. They might be different strings, but I can't see how that process of what you label “corruption”.... I almost get the impression that you're saying it's corruption because you don't agree with the present government here.

[Bruce Pardy]

No.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm not necessarily a fan of theirs, either, but I don't—

[Bruce Pardy]

Just to be clear, though, when I say “corruption”, I don't mean brown envelopes of cash under the door.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I know you don't.

[Bruce Pardy]

I'm talking about the corruption of the intellectual enterprise, as in the influence that the promise of funding has on the questions that are pursued, and on how they are pursued.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

In other words, you're saying that universities should be funded strictly by the provinces.

[Bruce Pardy]

Yes, I am, in the same way that I think health care should be funded by the provinces, because health care is a provincial responsibility.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I just don't see the intellectual thing behind all these other things you complain about with the federal government. I don't see that changing under a provincial government. That's all.

[Bruce Pardy]

I think the solution is to allow the provinces to work it out for themselves. I might have the same criticism of a provincial government's approach, if they chose something similar.

The point is that it's a provincial responsibility. Why don't you let them work it out? If they put together a program that resembles what we're talking about, I would have criticisms for them, as well, but at least they're within their jurisdiction now.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You have a minute.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Oh, my goodness. Time flies. Actually, it doesn't fly when you're having fun.

I'll continue on this, then.

You commented how there's 40% taken off the top. That doesn't come off the top if—

[Bruce Pardy]

I want to be very clear. I will—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm sorry. That was just the start of my question.

It seems as if the universities are eagerly trying to claw in money wherever they can find it. The fact is that government funding of universities has steadily declined over the last 30 or 40 years, so universities are desperate for cash. They're looking for cash wherever they can find it. They upped tuition fees and brought in lots of foreign students so they can get higher tuition fees. They take bigger and bigger chunks off research grants from researchers—not from students.

Again, the only way I can see that being fixed is if the provincial governments—in your view—fund universities at a much higher rate than they are now.