Science and Research Committee on May 19th, 2022

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

There, I was referring to when we we're bringing in.... We basically brought in NSERC, which is amazing. I think they do phenomenal work, but they can't send money to a company. They were doing their job. This is in no way whatsoever a criticism of NSERC. They're being matched up with Innovate UK. I'd rather be a company in the U.K. for this program than a company in Canada.

Innovate UK sent money to a company, which subcontracted to universities there. We were funding academics. Our companies had to do the in-kind work and give extra cash to the academics. That's great for certain things, but not when the U.K. side or the EU side has the ability.... Actually, in the U.K., they had to send the money to a company. They were laser-focused on commercialization. We wanted to be, but we didn't have the instruments to do that.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Right. Just on that program, it's like we're Boy Scouts here, in Canada. We do all this research, and then our lunch gets stolen and we're like, “We don't have any jobs.” Where the commercialization of the products, which is very frustrating as a taxpayer and as a Canadian, most wouldn't understand that....

You talked about the visas, and how we just lost a student. We had an instance in my riding in Saskatchewan, Saskatoon—University, where they were having some immigration troubles. You said that this has been going on for years. Is there not a 1-800 number that we could set up especially for creative geniuses we need to stay in Canada and do the research? I'm not sure who represents your area, but if you brought that example to your local MP, did they not try to pick up the phone and help?

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

We have done that over the years and it has helped. Several years ago, there was a person who couldn't bring his wife over, and that was obviously really hard on him. Sometimes it is escalated to that point, but for these cases.... We tried hard. There isn't an easy 1-800 number for doing this, in general.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Would you recommend that we have something like that for fast-tracking visas, or resolving or appealing problems that arise from that?

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

I think that for these super niche areas where.... We need to think of these as the Toronto Raptors or the Toronto Blue Jays—

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

It's a competition.

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

It's really hard. There are so few of them. We're working so hard to get them here. I sympathize with all the challenges Immigration and Citizenship Canada has to deal with. I'm not throwing stones there, but we just need to figure out how to escalate. We're very cognizant of that, so we don't go calling our MP every time something isn't going our way—

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I would recommend you do that, though.

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

We need a better process for that. PRs are taking forever.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Whenever it's about escalating so that you don't lose top talent, I would escalate that to your member of Parliament right away. They're getting paid to do a job, so hopefully they can resolve this. I do like your approach to this as team Canada. We are in a competition. The race is out there and I don't know if Canada is winning this. I do feel that you need to do that whenever it does occur.

Can you unpack a little bit about “use it or lose it”? Are you talking about government supporting and purchasing technology from these start-ups? Is that where that was coming from?

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

Yes, exactly. We can't say, “We're not going to buy your stuff and we're not going to invest in your companies, but please don't leave Canada.” That's not going to work.

I think there's really value added to engaging them, because, with something really disruptive, you need to be ready or you'll be caught off guard. Do we know how quantum can impact our energy sector? Not really. Do we know if it's going to affect our health sector? Not really. Nobody knows perfectly, but we need to at least be.... We don't have to outrun the bear, but we'd better know more than anyone else about how it's going to impact the critical sectors of our economy.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

This means being faster than the U.K., as much as they are a good Commonwealth friend.

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

Yes.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

You talked about the U.K. and some of their funding that goes directly to companies. What other programs are they doing that they do better than us? How are they structuring their supports?

[Dr. Michele Mosca]

I'm not saying that everyone else does a great job and we're terrible. The U.K. are our friends.

I was just at the White House at a meeting discussing collaboration with other like-minded nations in this space. We do need a common quantum market, because we can't just build companies that serve only the Canadian market. They've built companies that only serve the U.K. market, so we have to find a nice balance.

They have these sorts of clusters—I forget what they call them now—in areas of focus that bring together industry and academia. They're not moon shots, but they're kind of like a mini moon shot, where it's really a collaborative effort toward a common goal. I think these kinds of program-level initiatives attempt to do these things coherently, and I think there are obviously some important lessons to be learned there—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Mosca, I'm sorry to interrupt. The six minutes are up.

I think it's worth underlining what Mr. Tochor said, that MPs do exist to help with immigration. It's important that the research community know that.

Thank you very much, Mr. Tochor.

Now we will go to Mr. Collins for six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I'll start with Mr. McCauley. In one of his first points, he talked about the immigration issue. He referenced that Canada is a destination for international students. I think our open and transparent immigration policies have benefited Canada over the last number of decades, in contrast with some of the policies we've seen adopted by the former U.S. administration, which put barriers up for people who wanted to travel to the United States, and they experienced a brain drain because of that for the four years when it occurred. We were the beneficiaries of that.

I think it's very important, because of the comments we've received tonight and from other witnesses, that we emphasize that we have an immigration system that works, although there certainly have been some hoops and hurdles recently.

I want to ask Mr. McCauley from adMare if he is experiencing some of those same issues that Dr. Mosca referenced earlier and elaborated on. Is it becoming a barrier, or is it more of a nuisance? Maybe I can put it that way.

[Gordon McCauley]

I think it's certainly the case that we are seeing some of those. I would call them more of a nuisance than roadblocks. There are challenges in working through some of the visa situations. I can think anecdotally, like Dr. Mosca, of an example that we have right now of trying to work through the visa situation with one of our key employees.

To your question, I would say it's more of a nuisance. Again, like Dr. Mosca, we tend to be advocating pretty aggressively on behalf of our colleagues.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. McCauley.

A subsequent question is along the lines of equity, diversity and inclusion. There are three witnesses tonight who've referenced that. That hasn't been a common theme with some of the past witnesses, so I was very happy, Mr. McCauley, to hear you reference your gender-balanced program. I'm just wondering if you could elaborate on that program or others that you have that seek to improve the EDI subject at adMare.

[Gordon McCauley]

We're very proud of the program, specifically the executive institute. Candidly, this industry has a lot of work to do in identifying and promoting talent from gender equity-seeking groups. We deliberately said with that program that it would be fifty-fifty men and women and it would broadly reflect the diversity of Canada. I'm really proud of the work that my colleagues have done in that regard, because they have worked very hard to find and promote those equity-seeking candidates, and it has worked very well.

I'd also say that we do the same thing in other programs, such as the bioinnovation scientist program, which looks more at entry-level scientists and equally supports candidates from equity-seeking groups. We're very proud of that work. I think we have a lot of work to do, and there are specific equity-seeking groups for whom it is particularly difficult. It's just going to be harder work, but we're totally committed to doing it.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for that.

Switching gears, Dr. Whiteside, you also referenced EDI. I believe it is one of the recommendations that you provided to us. Is it part of the $100-million investment over 10 years? Did you raise it in the context of seeking financial support for it or in the context of advising that it is a priority for the foundation?

[Dr. Catharine Whiteside]

Well, it's certainly a priority for our foundation, and yes, it is certainly part of our recommendation for a new early-career investigator program. It's absolutely crucial that we take into consideration the barriers that are currently in existence.

The good news is that our institutions are really beginning to address this very aggressively. I think we're in a great position to make new investments now that will improve the recruitment of women and equity-seeking groups and also provide them with mentorship. One of the key success factors is to provide mentorship at every level, starting through graduate training and post-doctoral training. In particular, early-career investigators have a long row to hoe in their first five years. Being able to provide more direct mentorship deliberately and across the country in this particular group will, I think, help to address the EDI issues as well.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Dr. Whiteside.

I have less than a minute left. Could I ask you to elaborate on your recommendations for the federal granting agencies? You did raise that in your opening, but it was a very brief reference. Could you provide some meat on the bone as it relates to what you're suggesting occur as part of this study in relation to the federal granting agencies?

[Dr. Catharine Whiteside]

Yes. Very specifically, I think early-career investigators should be offered the opportunity for a higher rate of funding through increased funding overall for researcher-led programs. CIHR is a great example. Last year, only 20% of early-career investigators received grants, and they had to compete against more senior investigators, who had a higher rate of funding, at about 23%. It's still very low, but I think the early-career investigators really need to be looked at independently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. Collins.

Again, we really appreciate all of you coming here and sharing your expertise.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you now have the floor for six minutes.