Science and Research Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the 19th meeting of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

As you know, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23. We have members who are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i), and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, June 16, we are meeting on our first study of research and scientific publication in French.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. As you know, for interpretation for those on Zoom, you have a choice at the bottom of your screen of French, English, or floor. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I offer a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, as you know, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

I'd now like to welcome our guests. We are so delighted to have you, and we are looking forward to listening to you.

Appearing as an individual, we have Professor Sylvie Lamoureux, full professor and research chair in language management. From Acfas, we have Professor Jean-Pierre Perreault, president; Professor Anne-José Villeneuve, president of the Alberta section; and Laura Pelletier, project manager, Canadian Francophonie.

Each group will have five minutes to present. At the four and a half minute mark, I will hold up this card. It lets you know you have 30 seconds to finish.

Prof. Lamoureux, you now have the floor.

[Sylvie Lamoureux, Full Professor, Research Chair in Language Management, As an Individual]

Madam Chair, Vice-Chairs, and members of the committee, I would like to thank you for the invitation to participate in this first meeting in connection with your study on research and scientific publication in French. I congratulate you on your choice of this particular subject.

Protecting and promoting research and scientific publication in French is important, not only for disseminating and mobilizing knowledge, but also for the French language to continue to be promoted and flourish. In the words of author-composer-performer Daniel Lavoie, French is a language that thinks, a beautiful and proud language.

Much ink has been spilled in the last 40 years and more about research and scientific publication in French. The work of colleagues like Vincent Larivière, at the Université de Montréal, and Richard Marcoux, at Laval University, show the urgency of the need to examine this question now.

Like Quebec's chief scientist, Rémi Quirion, I believe we need to do more to promote research in French, learned publications and popular publications for the general public, not only among the scientific committee, but also among the communities affected by research, and francophone communities in general. In so doing, we will raise Canada's profile in the francophone world and beyond.

I was delighted when the Quebec Research Funds launched the Publication en français award. I was even envious, since we have nothing like it in Ontario. It is a wonderful incentive to encourage and promote publication in French.

I am grateful for the various supports offered for Canadian francophone and bilingual journals in the social sciences and humanities and in the fine arts and literature, a majority of which are available in the open access collection on the Érudit platform. The reality, however, is that scientific publications in French and promotion of scientific knowledge in French are declining. The work done by Vincent Larivière confirms a significant drop in the creation of new scientific journals in French in the world in general, but particularly in Canada.

Creation of the Érudit platform has certainly been of crucial importance to the recognition of scientific publication in French in Canada and internationally. However, Prof. Richard Marcoux at Laval University has demonstrated the precariousness of the very existence of Canadian scholarly journals, in particular those in French or in both official languages, because of their limited readership. While they do not represent a business opportunity for foreign publishing houses or for the organizations that might fund them, these publications meet a need for information about important Canadian issues that are of interest not just for Canada, but also for the rest of the world.

The work done by Prof. Marcoux on scientific publication in the humanities in Canada shows that francophone researchers draw heavily on research in English, while their anglophone counterparts do not return the favour. This is a genuine problem, since a language is more than words: it is a culture and a way of thinking and seeing the world. If we ignore it, we are putting blinders on.

My experience as a leader at the University of Ottawa has confirmed that some young researchers are worried about the negative effects of publishing in French when the time comes to evaluate their application for tenure or promotion.

Journals in French are generally not indexed. Choosing to publish in French means choosing to be cited less often. Some people consider that choice negatively instead of recognizing the importance of promoting our language and ensuring dissemination of scientific knowledge in our language.

How, then, are we to promote research and publication in French among Canada's emerging researchers, the young and the not so young?

The lack of publications in French presents challenges for me when I am designing university courses in French. I have no choice but to use publications in English in a course given in French, which is particularly problematic for a master's course on language policy and planning in Canada, for example. How can this situation be justified to francophone students coming from outside Canada, or students who expect that all, or at least most, of their lectures will be in French?

My research does not deal directly with this subject, but it does highlight a secondary, not to say perverse, effect of the linguistic homogenization of research: the low number of master's and doctoral theses written in French. That reinforces the stereotype that in order to do science, you have to do it in English.

That creates a vicious circle when it comes time to move from elementary school to secondary school, or choose a field of postsecondary study. At university, some people believe that to succeed and be published, they have to study in English, since that is the language that science is published in.

That is what I feel personally when I do my research, when I hear young people tell me why they left French-language secondary school, why they enrolled in a program in English, or why they chose to do their thesis in English even though they are enrolled in a program in French.

In Ontario, French-language secondary schools first came into being in about 1969...

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Prof. Lamoureux, but your speaking time is up.

I hope that when our colleagues begin to ask questions, you will be able to finish your material.

Thank you so very much.

I will now give the floor to the representatives of Acfas for five minutes.

[Jean-Pierre Perreault, President, Acfas]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good evening, members of the committee. Thank you for having us here.

I am Jean-Pierre Perreault, president of Acfas and Vice-President, Research and Graduate Studies, at the Université de Sherbrooke.

Our century-old association, Acfas, brings together French-speaking researchers in Canada. Our study entitled "Portrait et défis de la recherche en français en contexte minoritaire au Canada" reveals that French-speaking researchers represent 21 per cent of the research community in Canada, but that only half of them make their grant applications to the federal granting councils in French.

In my own discipline, biochemistry and RNA, I would not even dare to think I would be successful if I submitted an application in French. There are three main reasons for that.

First, the granting councils have often had a poor reputation when it comes to how they treat applications in French. The evaluators assess their own level of bilingualism, and some of them do not completely understand the francophone application they are reading, and so some francophone researchers have received comments from certain granting councils, explaining the denial of funding for their project, that made no sense.

The success rate for applications submitted in French is lower than for applications submitted in English. This entire situation has led to distrust on the part of French-speaking researchers. There is therefore work to be done at the federal granting councils to reverse the trend and regain these researchers' confidence.

Second, in minority situations, many francophone researchers work at anglophone universities, where it is simply not possible to submit an application in French, because the university would not be able to understand it. One of the reasons why Acfas wants to create a new service to assist research in French in Canada is to get through this blockade.

Third, along with those reasons, there is obviously the international context of research, where English is the common language.

From the perspective of learned publications and presentations in French, the data from our study show a clear and definite decline. Our respondents, who are all from Canadian francophone minority communities, say that they publish in English to reach a broader audience, to be cited more often, to have better chances of getting grants, and to advance their career. English is also the language of a majority of prestigious scholarly journals, and this carries considerable weight in a researcher's curriculum vitae.

It is essential to have a common language in research. That being said, we must not forget the local situation. There is knowledge to be transmitted to our community and a francophone vocabulary to be developed for disseminating this research. Francophone scholarly journals also play a crucial role in developing that vocabulary.

We cannot just place the blame on the international research environment to explain the decline we are experiencing. As I said earlier, there is a lack of confidence in the granting councils in Canada. There is also a lack of financing for scholarly journals, scientific activities in French and groups that provide leadership in these communities. And last, there is a lack of recognition.

We need to expand the criteria based on which a researcher is valued in Canada. And we need to acknowledge that there are a number of profiles of professor/researchers and they are all as excellent as one another. Some researchers use their experience not only to advance knowledge, but also to advance their society, for example by advising community groups or having local study subjects to respond to specific concerns in their community, for example. In my opinion, valuing them less simply because their research has no international impact makes no sense.

Before concluding, I would like to note that what we are calling for is part of an international movement for multilingualism in research brought about by the Helsinki Initiative.

I would point out that I am accompanied by Prof. Anne-José Villeneuve, from Alberta, who manages two scholarly journals, one francophone and the other bilingual, and Laura Pelletier, project manager at Acfas.

We will be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Perreault.

I'd like to thank all our witnesses for joining us, and I'd also like to recognize that tonight we're joined by members Monsieur Boulerice and Ms. Thompson.

Welcome to the committee as well.

We thank our witnesses and colleagues. We will now go to our first round of questions. Our members will be very interested in hearing your advice tonight. This is a six-minute round.

We will begin with Mr. Williams, please.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming to the committee today.

I'm sorry: I am learning French, but I am going to ask my questions in English today.

Monsieur Perreault, in your 2021 summary report, you mention that this situation got the attention of the official languages commission in 2008 and SSHRC in 2011. What were the recommendations of the symposiums held in 2008 and 2011, and were their recommendations ever acted upon?

[Jean-Pierre Perreault]

I am going to let Ms. Pelletier answer your question. She specializes in this subject and she is responsible for the aspects relating to Canadian francophone at Acfas.

[Laura Pelletier, Project Manager, Canadian Francophonie, Acfas]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Williams.

In the literature review that appears in the long version of the report, you will find a precise summary of the recommendations that came out of the symposiums that were held. However, the findings are more or less the same as the findings we made in the study: the need to promote scientific activity in French and the actors who support it, and to encourage the study of these subjects, that is, the study of Canadian francophonie itself.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay. I was wondering if you could give us some numbers.

Say, for example, that you have two equal researchers in the same field, one anglophone and one francophone. If they wanted to publish their findings in a scholarly journal, how many journals would be available to each researcher in their mother tongue?

[Laura Pelletier]

I don't have the exact figure in my head, but you will find a table in the report that shows the number of francophone publications in each province. Certainly, in the provinces other than Quebec, there are a lot more journals in English where a researcher can publish. You will also see that some provinces have only one francophone journal. I think that will give you a good idea of the situation.

[Jean-Pierre Perreault]

We also have to remember that scholarly journals in French are found primarily in the humanities and social sciences. Myself, I am a health researcher, and as in the case of my colleagues in the natural sciences and engineering, there are virtually no journals in French in our disciplines.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Does a lack of publishing opportunities hold back innovative discoveries by francophone researchers? If so, can you give us some examples?

[Anne-José Villeneuve, President , Alberta, Acfas]

Thank you for your question.

When you publish in the humanities and social sciences, it is often easier to disseminate your work in the majority language, English, than to do it in French. Obviously, it depends on the research subjects. When you are working on the francophonie, you can publish your work in French more easily. However, when you work in political science, sociology or anthropology, for example, you have a much broader choice of scientific journals, a large majority of which are in English.

The journals recognized as being in French often deal with humanities and social sciences in general or, even more often, with the francophonie. When you do research on that subject or on language in general, the number of French or bilingual scientific journals is obviously higher than when you do research on another subject.

[Laura Pelletier]

I would like to add one clarification. The question is not just the number of journals published in French. There is also the fact that some of those journals lack support. The goal is therefore not to have a huge expansion in the number of journals; rather, it is to make sure that a researcher is able to publish in the language of their choice in every field. We also have to make sure that the existing journals have the resources they need to secure their future.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Are those journals not translated into French? Are they only available in English?

[Anne-José Villeneuve]

If I may, I'll make my response bilingual for the purpose of tonight's discussion.

Usually, a researcher who publishes in one language is discouraged from publishing the same article in the other language. It would essentially be considered self-plagiarism.

That means that if you publish an article in French on a specific subject in a particular journal, the article might not be published in English. There is no mechanism that systematically translates an article into another language.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

My last question, Madam Chair, is this. Should they be, yes or no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Perhaps, Mr. Williams, you might want to ask for a written answer, because you're out of time.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

But “yes or no” would be quick, though.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Lauzon, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Perreault and Ms. Lamoureux.

Ms. Lamoureux, you piqued my curiosity when you talked about the work done by Vincent Larivière. When I read one of his publications dating from 2018, I learned that there were fewer and fewer scientific journals in French in Canada. It said that between 1940 and the end of the 1980s, the share held by English was relatively stable, at around 80 per cent, while the share held by French was about 10 per cent. However, starting with the turn of the 21st century, there has been a decline in French.

How do you explain this major decline starting in the 2000s, when before that, there was a balance between the language of publication and the number of researchers?

[Sylvie Lamoureux]

The number of researchers is not the only factor. In the 1940s, at the doctoral level, the obligation to learn a language other than the language a person was studying in was standard.

Around the end of the 1990s and at the turn of the 21st century, universities started eliminating that obligation to learn either a foreign language or the other Canadian official language, even for doctoral students in Canadian history, difficult as it may be to imagine studying the history of this country without being able to read one part of it.

The largest number of journals were started in the 1980s, but since then we have observed a decline. That phenomenon echoes globalization and the growing homogenization toward English.

Starting a new journal is not everything, however. There also have to be people to manage and fund it. If the readership is not very large, the business is much more difficult. In fact, several years ago there was even a pretty significant drop in funding for journals coming out of Quebec.

So a few factors, like globalization and a loss of multilingualism among the academic intelligentsia, contribute to explaining the present situation.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Could one of those solutions be to work with the universities and somehow go back to the former way of doing things, by making it mandatory to include both official languages in their programs, in order to promote French more?

[Sylvie Lamoureux]

I am 56 years old, and life expectancy is very high in my family. However, while it may be a fine dream, I think it will not be achieved during my lifetime, because of academic freedom, university curricula, and the internationalization of those curricula. We must not forget that this practice would apply not only to bilingual and francophone universities, but also to anglophone universities.

At present, we have to consider not only the question of publications in French, but also the matter of promoting research about the francophonie. If I want to publish an article in English about my studies in French Ontario, that is not very sexy. I get lovely rejection letters saying:

“Our readership is not interested in this topic. Please try a francophone journal.”

However, if I really want to communicate and show the links between what I am doing and what is being done in Wales, I lose that opportunity. These are two subjects.

So how do we make people aware of this? We could always ask the Commissioner of Official Languages to work with the universities.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Why not?