Science and Research Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

—and I don't know if we have any time.

How much time do we have, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

You have 40 seconds.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

You can continue, Professor Cardinal, and I'll ask the others next time.

[Linda Cardinal]

I can also turn the floor over to Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon.

Everyone agrees that we need support both in and outside the federal government, that is to say in the institutions of the Canadian francophonie and at Canadian universities, to promote research in French and to demonstrate that French is also a scientific language. That's not a reflection on…

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I apologize for interrupting, Mrs. Cardinal.

It's the worst part of this job.

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

Now, dear colleagues, we're going to go to the five-minute rounds. It's my understanding that the Conservative Party has ceded its time to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My next questions will be for Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon.

In your remarks, you discussed the underappreciation and chronic underfunding of research in French.

I'd like you to outline some other recommendations. More specifically, how can the federal government further promote research and scientific publication in French in Canada?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

Francophone researchers and researchers wishing to conduct research in French often do so in English because working in that language definitely affords more opportunities and prestige.

Mrs. Cardinal offered several potential solutions, such as creating awards, awarding grants specific to this field and scholarships for students.

We really need to create a space where research in French is valued in the same way and enjoys the same legitimacy as research in English. As research work has shown, working in English also poses a danger that's inherent in the very nature of research: it becomes less and less specific and the issues expand. All research on community needs should be conducted in the language of the community. However, the very subjects of that research are threatened if research in that language isn't encouraged. The danger inherent in conducting research in English is that detailed and specific knowledge of Canadian complexity, which, in particular, includes the francophone aspect, is lost.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Would you please give us more details on the consequences?

You say that cultural pillars form in francophone minority communities, but linguistic insecurity is beginning to emerge. What are the direct consequences for those communities of the fact that these researchers can't necessarily conduct their research or publish their scientific work in their mother tongue?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

The first consequence that we see at home is an exodus of francophone brains. If francophones can't get what they need at the Campus Saint-Jean or the University of Alberta, they'll go to Quebec or elsewhere for their studies, or they'll switch over to English, and then we'll lose people who are very important for our communities.

We saw what happened at Laurentian University in northern Ontario. Students lost their programs and the opportunity to conduct research. It was a disaster for them, one that led them to ponder profound identity issues about the legitimacy of their language and how they viewed their lives. It was all called into question because their programs were terminated, which sent the message that it wasn't important. In many instances, those people will up stakes and leave their home and language, and we'll lose them.

We've lost colleagues and students since the crisis at Campus Saint-Jean. It has been catastrophic for a community that needs local talent to continue projecting itself into the future.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to continue on another topic.

Do you know if we have any data on funding for research in French?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

I think my colleague Éric Forgues could provide you with more figures than I can on funding for research in French.

However, I can say, based on the data, that funding for research in French faces obstacles, particularly funding provided by the Canada Institutes for Health Research. In proportional terms, less funding is provided for proposed research in French at the CIHR than for that submitted in English. CIHR is very much aware of this obstacle and wants to reduce it, but that has to happen more quickly.

As for research topics in the humanities and social sciences, where French has legitimacy and should be encouraged, researchers now submit fewer and fewer grant applications in French to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. Francophone researchers choose to submit their grant applications in English because they feel that gives them a better chance of securing funding.

Would you like to add to my answer, Mr. Forgues?

[Éric Forgues]

Actually, further analysis remains to be done on research funding. We haven't really seen any difference in acceptance rates between applications submitted in French and those filed in English with the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. However, the amounts awarded should be analyzed. I don't have the figures on that. You should also look at the Sociopol study that I mentioned in my opening statement.

You should also take a look at how the research councils analyze the research funding applications submitted to them. They put all the universities on the same footing, whereas that's simply not the case. Everyone is assessed on the same criteria. However, some universities have far more resources than others, as has been noted at length, so they have a head start…

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Professor. Please forgive me.

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

We will now go to Ms. Diab for five minutes, please.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being with us this evening to discuss this very important topic for all of us.

Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon, we discussed the importance of the Acfas project. Would you please tell us a little more about that?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

Yes, definitely. I'd be happy to say more about this service, which supports research in French in Canada.

What we are seeing in our small institutions, whether they are universities or campuses, is a shortage of resources on the ground. As I mentioned, if tomorrow morning I were to decide to send an application to the Natural Sciences and Engineering Council, there would be no one at the University of Alberta research office to help me prepare and review my application in French. These are people with expertise in such projects, who know how to prepare a budget and choose the appropriate terminology so that the researchers can succeed in obtaining funding. Sometimes, all researchers have to do is make some minor adjustments to increase the likelihood of getting a grant. However, we no longer have this French-language expertise at the University of Alberta. And it's not just here, but everywhere, that small institutions are suffering from this shortage of resources on the ground.

We're certainly not expecting to be able to have specialists in this area at each of our institutions and campuses. On the other hand, why not establish a service that all francophone researchers in Canada can access? That's what Acfas would like: an application review service and an ethics review service for the approval of applications. Ms. Cardinal spoke about this. When we conduct research in French, but the ethics office asks us to translate our entire application into English, that's a serious disconnect for researchers.

If a Canada-wide service for ethics compliance were established and accredited by post-secondary institutions, it would support our francophone researchers by not forcing them to work twice as hard, as is currently the case when they are asked to have their applications translated so that they can be understood beyond their university. This support service would be important, because it would share resources and give these researchers access to the review and support they need to do their work. Without it, we get the impression that our research isn't important.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I have an additional question.

In Canada, as just about everywhere else in the world, there are labour shortages in many fields. Is that one of the reasons why there are no specialists to review our research? Could it also be a matter of money, because most of your post-secondary institutions are somewhat smaller? Is that why establishing a service accessible to everyone across Canada, as you were mentioning, could be a solution to the problem?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

Definitely. Skilled workers are available. It's just that there is often a lack of understanding or inclination in the universities.

I'll use the University of Alberta as an example. When I got there, we had access to this service, but the bilingual person who used to help us left, and the university, despite pressure from us, did not see fit to replace that person. That often happens in universities. And yet, there are 30,000 researchers in Canada who could submit applications in French. When a bilingual person happens to be working in a research service, help can be provided. However, when people like these retire or move to another job, they are not replaced because the institution can't see the benefit.

There are all kinds of doctoral students who don't have access to certain research jobs, because they're not renewed, and these students would be very happy to have one of these jobs. These positions are perceived positively and they support all members of the community who want to conduct research in French.

So I'm convinced that the workers are there. What's sometimes missing on the ground is the resolve. If a service of this kind covered all of Canada, that would rationalize…

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon. I don't have much time.

Mr. Forgues, I am keenly interested in the research being done by your institute on linguistic minorities.

What role is performed by producing and disseminating scientific information in French beyond Quebec?

[Éric Forgues]

The role of our institute…

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

May I interrupt?

Madame Diab, since you don't have time left, perhaps you would like to ask Professor Forgues if he could table his response for you.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Yes.

Mr. Forgues, If you have an answer for us, could you have it sent to the committee, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much.

Dear colleagues, sadly, we have come to the end of this panel. We now want to thank our excellent witnesses.

We thank you for your expertise. We thank you for being gracious with your time. We hope that you've had a good experience and that you might want to come back.

With that, I say thank you to you all. We will suspend briefly as we prepare for our second panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I call this meeting back to order.

Good evening, everyone. I understand from our clerk that we are ready to go for panel two.

I'll begin by giving some information to the new witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

Interpretation for those on Zoom - you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor/off, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

A reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

We will be hearing from Mr. Martin Normand, Director, Strategic Research and International Relations, at the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne.

We also have Mrs. Annie Pilote, Full Professor and Dean, Faculty of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies, at Université Laval, appearing today on behalf of the Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences.

Also with us is Mr. Benoit Sévigny, the Director of Communications at Fonds de recherche du Québec.

Colleagues, we will now go to opening statements. Each of the three groups will have five minutes.

At the four and a half minute mark, I will hold up this green folder. That will let you know that you have 30 seconds left. We do our best to be fair.

With that, I say welcome to you all. Our committee is eager to hear from you.

I'll begin by giving the floor to Mr. Martin Normand for five minutes.

[Martin Normand, Director, Strategic Research and International Relations, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for inviting us in connection with such an important study for Canada's francophone post-secondary sector.

I am here today representing the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, which is made up of the 22 francophone or bilingual post-secondary institutions in francophone minority communities. Our mandate is to represent the interests of our members with a view to enhancing access to post-secondary education in French.

Research and publication in French are two of our priority areas for action. We have ties with federal granting agencies to make them aware of the challenges of research in French outside Quebec. We have made an effort to ensure that research is taken into consideration in the recent Canada-wide consultations on official languages conducted by Canadian Heritage. We also oversee the Réseau de la recherche sur la francophonie canadienne, which organizes an annual symposium and a number of knowledge mobilization activities.

Last year, the ACUFC also organized the summit on post-secondary education in minority francophone communities, a major Canada-wide undertaking that ran from June 2021 to March 2022. The final report will be released on October 27, and a whole chapter of the report is devoted to scientific research and publication in French. I'd like to draw your attention to three points.

Firstly, researchers in our institutions work on the periphery of the major research networks. Teaching loads are heavy, graduate students are few, colleagues who work in French on similar topics are remote and English-speaking colleagues do not always understand the research subject. These factors naturally limit opportunities for scientific collaboration and interaction, even though they would be exceedingly beneficial

Second, English is more than ever becoming the lingua franca in the increasingly international scientific research community. That being the case, faculty members are conducting more and more research activities in English. The lack of familiarity with research issues specific to the francophonie can lead to structural prejudices and unconscious biases that make it harder for researchers from francophone communities to receive funding for their research projects.

Third, the research community and the community sector generally are very closely interrelated in francophone minority settings. Although faculty often want to assume social responsibility for producing data relevant to their environment, they may give in to pressure owing to the fact that this kind of work is not always given recognition by institutions, and they may not have access to all the resources they need to take on this responsibility.

We would like to make three suggestions.

Firstly, we would ask that the federal government take steps to foster the creation and dissemination of scientific information in French in the next action plan for official languages. They made this commitment in the official languages reform document of February 2021, and in Bill C-13, which is currently under review, and which we hope will soon be adopted. For positive measures that might be considered, we note that the action plan could contain provisions on funding for the research community to enable researchers to draw upon data on official languages from the 2021 census, as well as future data from the Survey on the Official Language Minority Population, or support ways of disseminating and mobilizing scientific knowledge and developing educational materials in French.

We are also asking that the federal government introduce the measures required to encourage Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, as well as the granting agencies, to support and enhance research in French. They could then provide access to funds and programs that better meet the needs and capacities of post-secondary institutions, including colleges. The government should also asked them to review the framework for assessing the excellence of research in French. The granting agencies also need support to avoid furthering unconscious linguistic bias in the development of programs and initiatives. For example, the Dimensions tool, administered by the three councils, whose purpose is to promote equity, diversity and inclusion in the Canadian research ecosystem, does not consider language minorities to be an under-represented group in terms of research.

Lastly, we are requesting that post-secondary sector support programs in official language minority communities allow institutions to apply for long-term support for their activities, including the hiring of full-time professors who could train the next generation of researchers and receive funding from granting agencies or institutional research support.

To conclude, I would remind you that research in French outside Quebec and research on francophone and Acadian minority communities fuel intellectual endeavours that are beneficial to Canadian society as a whole. We will continue to work with our member institutions, the research communities, and partners like Acfas in pursuance of these efforts.

The federal government, given its concern for substantive equality, needs to take significant steps to ensure that conditions for the production and dissemination of knowledge in French are equivalent to the conditions for the anglophone majority.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so very much, Monsieur Normand. We appreciate your testimony.

We will go to Professor Annie Pilote for five minutes.

The floor is yours.