Science and Research Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

Can you tell us whether any measures have been taken by Fonds de recherche du Québec to promote research and publication in French?

[Benoit Sévigny]

That's more or less what we did when we created the Prix Publication en français. After learning about the data and the trends, we wanted to encourage the scientific community to do more writing and publishing in journals in French. So that's one of the measures that were taken.

In addition, we will be organizing a two-day forum in the spring that will allow participants to hold discussions with partners in order to see how we can do more to promote science in French.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

One of the things you talked about was the decrease in the number of funding applications submitted in French.

In Canada, 5% to 12% of funding applications are submitted in French, and francophone researchers account for approximately 21% of the entire researcher population.

Does that picture resemble what you've found at Fonds de recherche du Québec?

[Benoit Sévigny]

I couldn't tell you. We are now documenting the grant applications. I would add, however, that Quebec ranks highly in federal government competitions. Year after year, it succeeds in getting 27% of the grants, even though it accounts for only 23% of the population.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sévigny.

Mr. Normand, I'll let you finish your answer from earlier about the possibility of setting quotas for granting agencies and federal funding for publication and research in French in Canada.

[Martin Normand]

Without taking quotas into consideration, I would point out that a number of measures have made it possible to come up with programs focused specifically on research in French in francophone minority communities. Researchers had been able to obtain funds to work on specific research topics. When these funds were no longer available, researchers had trouble finding funding for their research through the regular competitions. That measure ought to have continued.

The CIHR recently adopted a measure to require that the success rate of applications in French submitted to regular competitions be equivalent to the overall rate for French-language applications in all competitions. It's only a small step, but the measure is there and its purpose is to encourage researchers to submit their applications in French.

The fact remains that the success rate for applications submitted in French is much lower than for the other categories assessed by the CIHR. Of course, there are also some researchers who require more support. I'm thinking, for example, of new researchers, researchers from indigenous communities, women and other categories.

The CIHR has introduced all sorts of measures. The statistical data showed that in every competition, applications and French are less successful than those in all the other categories. Nevertheless, it's a first step towards achieving equivalent success rates.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Normand.

Among other things, you mentioned…

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

I'm sorry, but that's the end. We are at six minutes.

Before we go to Ms. Bradford, I just want to say to our witnesses how grateful we are. As you can see, you have a very interested committee.

We will now go to Ms. Bradford, for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, and thank you to our witnesses on this very important topic.

Director Sévigny, in the spring of 2021 the Canadian Institutes of Health Research reported an average grant amount for applications submitted in French to be $394,559, while the overall average grant size was $770,000.

Are you aware of any further data related to potential differences in the sizes of grants and awards between English and French research?

[Benoit Sévigny]

I don't have data for the Fonds de recherche du Québec to show whether grants for applications submitted in English are more successful than applications in French. Of course, there are many applications in French. I can speak on behalf of the Fonds de recherche du Québec, but not for the federal granting councils.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Apart from the language of submission, are there any other differences between the types of proposals submitted in French and those submitted in English, such as the area of research, duration, researcher qualifications, experience or the amount requested? Are some of these things impacting the substantial difference?

[Benoit Sévigny]

I have to admit that I can't answer your question. I couldn't say whether the research topics for the applications submitted in French are more contextualized than for those in English.

In natural sciences, engineering and health sciences, the research areas are much more universal than they are in the social sciences and the humanities.

However, I couldn't say whether there is a distinction to be made in terms of language when the applications submitted to the Fonds de recherche du Québec are being assessed.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Professor Pilote, in your institution, are there specific resources dedicated to supporting research in French?

[Annie Pilote]

Are you talking about the university or the Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I mean the university.

[Annie Pilote]

I'm a professor at Université Laval. Of course, the university values research in French immensely. It's the oldest francophone university, and it attaches a great deal of importance to that research commitment.

Like at all other universities, there's a lot of pressure to publish in English at Université Laval, and our institution recognizes the importance of impact factors in evaluating scientific careers and faculty promotions. This is a strong trend, despite the university's desire to encourage and value more research in French.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Director Normand, under part VII of the Official Languages Act, federal institutions have a duty to ensure that positive measures are taken with a view to enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities and supporting their development in fostering a full recognition of the use of both English and French.

What measures have the granting councils put in place to promote scientific research publications in French under the OLA?

[Martin Normand]

In recent years, we've seen the opposite occurring—the granting councils are moving away from positive measures.

In the early 2010s, a CIHR program for researchers in francophone minority communities was cancelled. It took about a decade before any semblance of an equivalent measure was established within CIHRs. Moreover, programs at the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council have been phased out over time.

In the wake of the review of the Official Languages Act and the Action Plan for Official Languages, we feel we should ask that the granting councils bring back the positive measures. This would help ensure stable and fair funding of research in French, not to mention the applied research done at colleges. The programs are tailored for this type of research. It's not the same as university research.

Beyond the granting councils, we also call on other federal agencies. There's a need for evidence in all francophone minority communities and within federal agencies. Federal agencies must take positive measures to support community development. Without this evidence, the communities cannot make sufficiently specific requests, and government organizations are not properly equipped to make appropriate decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Normand.

The worst part of this job is interrupting. I'm really sorry.

Dear colleagues and to our wonderful witnesses, we have come to the end of our time together.

I want to really say thank you to all of you for presenting. This is an important study for this committee. We are grateful for your time and expertise. We hope it was a good experience for you, and that you may come back in the future.

With that, colleagues, we say thank you to our witnesses. We will briefly suspend because we have one more panel tonight.

Thank you all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dear colleagues, I call this meeting back to order.

I'd like to make a few remarks for the new panel.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on the videoconference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Interpretation is available for those of you joining us on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French audio. For those in the room you can use your earpiece and channel.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome all our witnesses. We are so delighted to have you.

Appearing as an individual, we have Professor Chérif Matta from Mount Saint Vincent University; and from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, we have Dr. Marc Fortin, vice-president, research grants and scholarships directorate.

We will hear from each of our witnesses for five minutes. At the four and a half minute mark, I will put up this green card. It will let you know that you have 30 seconds left.

Again, we would like to welcome our witnesses. Thank you for joining us on this important study.

We will begin with Professor Matta for five minutes, please.

[Chérif F. Matta, Professor, Mount Saint Vincent University, As an Individual]

Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Science and Research, I thank you for inviting me to testify on research and publishing in French in Canada.

First, let me sum up my experience in a few words, on the basis of which I will testify today. My research is in theoretical physical chemistry. I'm a full professor and head of the department of chemistry and physics at Mount Saint Vincent University in Nova Scotia. I've just completed a four-year term as a member and the outgoing chair of the Interdisciplinary Adjudication Committee of the Canada Research Chairs. I'm a member of the board of directors of the Chemical Institute of Canada. I'm a member of Acfas-Acadie as the regional representative for Nova Scotia, under the leadership of our committee chair Dr. Selma Zaiane‑Ghalia. Having said that, let me be clear: In this testimony, I'm not invoking the authority of any institution or organization. I'm testifying as an individual, in my own name.

Centuries ago, the lingua franca of science was Latin, the linguistic ancestor of French and all Romance languages. Sir Isaac Newton himself chose Latin over his native English when he wrote his Philosophiæ naturalis principia mathematica, which deals with the mathematical principles of natural philosophy. Today, English is the lingua franca of science, but this is relatively recent. It began when the United States emerged as a superpower after World War II.

In the past, it was common to publish in other languages. For example, Albert Einstein's four articles from 1905 were published in German. The same was true of the papers by Schrödinger and Max Planck, which laid the foundation for quantum mechanics as we know it today. Louis Pasteur, Henri Poincaré, Marie Curie and many others published in French.

A few years ago, I came across a fine paper by Dr. Alain Aspect, who has just been named co-laureate of the 2022 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on quantum entanglement, the phenomenon underlying all modern advanced quantum information technologies. He published this paper in the prestigious, but not well-cited Bulletin de l'Union des physiciens, or BUP, a French-only publication based in Paris. However, this is not an isolated case. The BUP has published a great number of articles by French and francophone physicists and chemists, including several Nobel laureates, among them the legendary Louis de Boglie.

This little example demonstrates that leading scientists publish in French. Why do they do it? More generally, why publish in French? In my opinion, as a vehicle of thought, language modulates how we think. We're influenced by the cultural heritage associated with our language, as well as its nuances and ways of thinking. Do you really need to understand the lyrics to recognize a Cuban salsa, an Argentine tango, or Greek or Russian folk music? Musical phraseology emerges from the linguistic culture in which it's embedded. The same is true in other areas of the intellectual universe. The limits of our language are the limits of our world, as Ludwig Wittgenstein often argued in his Tractatus logico-philosophicus.

I will conclude with some practical suggestions—I can't think they are entirely original—for enriching francophone scholarship in Canada.

First, there should be an adequate budget quota for submissions in French to Canada's three granting councils.

Secondly, the shortcomings of evaluation committees that do not have members with a sufficient command of both French and the technical subject matter of a proposal should be addressed by replacing them with external members who can be recruited from a global database of French-speaking reviewers.

Third, I propose to establish a leading multidisciplinary general scientific journal in Canada in the French language.

Fourth, high visibility scientific conferences in the French language, such as the Conférence de chimie théorique et numérique, or QUITEL, should be encouraged and funded. I will be able to say more about this during the question period.

Fifth, I suggest that students be allowed to...

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Professor Matta, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry to interrupt. It's the worst part of this job, but I know our colleagues will be keen to ask you questions. Thank you so much for your presentation.

Now we will go to Mr. Marc Fortin for five minutes, please.

The floor is yours.

[Dr. Marc Fortin, Vice-President, Research Grants and Scholarships Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, good evening.

I am the vice-president of the Research Grants and Scholarships Directorate at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, or NSERC.

NSERC is a federal research funding agency. It supports 11,000 of Canada's best researchers each year and also provides scholarships and fellowships to students and postdoctoral fellows. Each year, NSERC invests close to $1 billion in research and in the next generation of innovators.

At NSERC, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, we support research and talent in both official languages. Applicants choose the language they want to use with us.

NSERC has the capability to assess applications in both English and French. Ninety-nine per cent of our personnel meet the language requirements of their positions. One hundred per cent of our literature, instructions and guides are published in both languages.

NSERC also recruits external scientific experts to assess the scientific excellence of the grant applications that are submitted to us. They provide NSERC with advice on the excellence of the research grant applications. Every evaluation committee we form has the ability to assess applications in French and in English. Over 10 years of data from our selection committees shows that 26% of the membership of those expert committees are francophones, and 45% of the membership are bilingual.

Madam Chair, NSERC has the people, the expertise and the processes to fairly assess the merit of grant applications regardless of the language they are written in. Despite having those capabilities at NSERC, only 10% of the applications we receive, on average, are submitted in French. Some have suggested that researchers may not submit their grant applications in French because they fear the granting councils may not process them fairly. The data does not support that view.

For example, grant applications submitted in French from McGill University or the University of Ottawa have, on average, a higher success rate compared to applications submitted by the same universities in English. Applications from other universities show different trends and sometimes the opposite of what I just mentioned here.

The success rate is influenced by many factors, likely more closely linked to the demographic context of the institution and also the support provided by the institution for French-language grant applications, amongst other factors.

English, as mentioned earlier, is the dominant language in research around the world. In Canada and at NSERC, however, we need to maintain our current ways of doing business, which allow us to evaluate applications for funding in both languages and avoid bias in the evaluation of applications in any language.

NSERC is also very proactive — I emphasize that word — in promoting the importance of science to francophones in Canada. We have two annual science promotion campaigns, Odyssey of Science and Science Literacy Week, in which francophones are actively involved. Our partners in Quebec have offered over 450 science promotion activities in French.

In addition, NSERC provided funding to nearly 30 francophone organizations to organize science promotion activities in French.

In summary, NSERC is able to evaluate applications for funding in both official languages, and it finds no striking pattern of systemic discrimination in the evaluation of applications, whether submitted in French or English.

We want to work with universities to combat the perception that it is more difficult to get NSERC funding if the application is submitted in French. We can work together to support researchers who want to do research in French.

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Fortin, we are so pleased to have you and Professor Matta throughout this third panel tonight. We welcome you, and we thank you for joining us.

I should have welcomed earlier the guest members who are with us tonight, Ben Lobb and Sonia Sidhu. We welcome both of them.

I understand that Mr. Lobb will begin the round of questioning.

Mr. Lobb, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan. Long time no see. Unfortunately for you, I guess I'm going to be a permanent member of this committee, so you're stuck with me.

Kirsty and I go way back, many Parliaments ago, when we sat together on the veterans affairs committee. Those were the good old days, maybe.

Mr. Fortin, thank you for appearing, and Mr. Matta, the same. You've heard much testimony over the last two hours from different people with their different points of view. I don't think they were really attacking NSERC or the granting councils that fall under NSERC, but what is the...?

I'm not going to say that everybody runs in the same circles, but the university and academic bunch does kind of run in the same circles. You would know a lot of them through the years. Where's the disconnect here? It seems to me that you guys meet at conferences. You could talk in a room and get this all figured out in a day. Where's the disconnect such that we have to do a study on this—or is there one?

Mr. Fortin, go ahead, please.