Science and Research Committee on April 25th, 2023

[Krista Jones]

Getting it better would be to create it such that you do keep the IP in Canada, but more importantly, that you keep the commercial activity here. If you look at the economic outputs, it's not just about where the IP is owned; it's about where you drive the sales from, where the taxes go and how many jobs you create around it.

That's why, when we look at the good outcomes, we want to see that commercialization piece of it, so that we're getting the benefit of the full value of the IP and not just the ownership of it.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

In that example, we're paying seemingly every salary in that plant for the next 10 years. In 10 years' time, if the technology is still valid or the plant's still valid, there might be a net benefit afterwards.

Is that your understanding of how the agreement breaks down, if it's a 10-year deal?

[Krista Jones]

As I said, I have not actually seen the agreement, other than just to look at the coverage that's occurred. That's my understanding as to how it is, which is that we will generate good-paying jobs as a result of that deal. If we could put similar investments into companies such that they put the sales divisions into Canada and Canada gets the taxes from the revenues, that would be the better and the best type of outcomes that we're looking for.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

In an alternate universe, if the government decided to give your organization the $13 billion, what kinds of things would you have potentially done with that large amount of money?

[Krista Jones]

It's a great question. That's a lot of money, to be clear.

We would spend a large portion of that investing directly in the companies that we are supporting. A big portion of that would go into trying to generate procurement, both domestically and internationally, for the companies we support, because what we really need to see happen is more procurement and more revenue.

Earlier, somebody was talking about profitability. We need to make sure that we're able to scale our companies. Scaling the companies is not about developing more patents; it's about generating commercial agreements and sales capability in the organizations.

That's how we would start to split up that money.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Do you have any examples of companies that you worked for or worked with that ultimately ended up getting foreign government funding in the way that Canadian Volkswagen went to Germany to get billions of dollars from their government?

[Krista Jones]

I'm sorry. I didn't understand the first part.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Of the clients that you have worked with, how many have potentially opened up operations in R and D or other production in other countries? I guess that would be my question.

[Krista Jones]

I don't have a percentage at the tip of my fingers, but I would say a significant portion of them have. These companies are independent businesses that are making the best decision with all of the options in front of them today.

In my experience in working with the entrepreneurs in Canada over the last 15 years, people have every intention of remaining headquartered in Canada, and they want to do business from here. What happens is that the reality of financing, funding and business opportunities forces them to make decisions that sometimes end up out of Canadian control.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Krista, I have one last question before I move over to our other witness. Could you provide in writing the top five paid positions in your organizations? I understand it's a non-profit, so I'm assuming that this information needs to be able to be disclosed.

Now I'll move over to Mr. Leaman.

Thank you for your testimony today.

You mentioned open government. What is open government, in your eyes? How would you describe it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 30 seconds.

[Jarret Leaman]

Thank you for the question.

Open government, in this context, is looking at having transparency available to work with first nation governments, for example, and being transparent and open around what the goals are. For example, there were open data initiatives that the government had put out that sometimes conflicted with indigenous sovereignty. Overall, that was my understanding.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you so much to both witnesses today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Lauzon. You have six minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First and foremost, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their opening remarks.

Mr. Leaman, you really piqued my curiosity when you suggested the possible use of technological reconciliation as a way to achieve progress. I'd like to hear more about your ecosystem and the next generation when it comes to creating intellectual property, before it's commercialized.

What tangible actions can the federal government take to help you? Can you tell us more about the ways in which we could support what you're doing?

[Jarret Leaman]

Thank you for that question.

I think more investment is needed in the indigenous innovation space. A lot of this work that we've been undertaking at the Centre for Indigenous Innovation and Technology has been undertaken with the private sector. A lot of the work has been done through volunteers like myself.

We could look at models like Ontario, for example, and invest in indigenous learning institutions to help with research. It would help grow our staffing and our people and it would contribute to the digital economy and to the creation of valuable IP. It could not only help our communities but also help others around the world.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

You said that your centre was young, barely five years old. You talked about the main challenges you face as a young organization. It's always toughest in the early years to find your footing. Talk about IP commercialization, if you wouldn't mind. How can the government help a young organization like yours get over the hurdles?

[Jarret Leaman]

We were able to do a panel with youth and young professionals. One of the things we talked about and focused on was gaming and entertainment in digital media and how an indigenous community would be represented in those media. That's an example that was brought up in the discussion. We could further those conversations and listen to the young innovators.

There was a panel of four or five, and we had representation from all regions of Canada. One of the things brought up that was important was supporting ethical and moral perspectives, such as the Exchange for Local Observation and Knowledge in the Arctic.

We could also ensure that there is a collective approach to the wealth model of the generation of IP. The Heiltsuk nation, for example, talked for years about being there during the Ice Age. They just found evidence recently about how that was true. How is that date acknowledged? It is through art.

Another thing that we heard, particularly from the youth, was around art and culture in IP. It was about the future of collaborative research and related or impacted sectors and about plans to support the exploration of the creative possibilities of art, science, and local and indigenous knowledge for understanding, interpreting and presenting interdependencies and interrelations within social, ecological and technological systems.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

You also piqued my curiosity when you talked about traditions. How can traditional indigenous knowledge and nature-based approaches be leveraged to develop and commercialize sustainable technological innovations in Canada?

[Jarret Leaman]

Thank you.

To answer that question, I think we need to look at a process around co-creation and collective ownership in IP.

For example, if an indigenous person's company is creating a product that has an indigenous knowledge base in it, who owns that portion of knowledge and how is the commercialization of that knowledge giving back to the indigenous community that has the collective ownership?

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Leaman.

Ms. Jones, thank you for your opening statement. I'd like to circle back to Volkswagen.

I think the investment Ontario made in IP is a good investment for all of Canada. For everyone's benefit, I would just point out that the plant is being built and run entirely by Volkswagen. The federal government isn't investing a single cent; all it's providing are production subsidies. Do you think that's a good model for other investments in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 30 seconds.

[Krista Jones]

As I said—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I would add that Quebec's government and premier support the investment in Ontario.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Go ahead, Ms. Jones.