Science and Research Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

We're hearing the desire for change. One, the indexing of supports has eroded all the buying power and research abilities in our university facilities. More and more groups believe we're on the wrong path right now. We can't have runaway inflation at the rate it is at right now, because it affects every part of our society. Many times, people don't think of students or faculty in universities, but it is more challenging.

Is there a region in Canada that is doing better than other regions right now? Is there a province or a specific institution that could be held up as more of a poster child, if I can use that verbiage, of what other institutions should be looking at, such as switching some of the dollars spent from administration more to teaching? Are there examples like this that you're aware of?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about 25 seconds.

[Justine De Jaegher]

You know, honestly, across the board we're seeing this challenge. There is not really a standout province. If we look at Quebec, for example, there are some additional pathways to permanence for contract academic staff through the chargés de cours system. That's perhaps worth highlighting. I'm sure my colleague could speak to that as well.

Again, it's not enough. We ultimately need to see more pathways to permanency for academics across this country. We know that's something that they want from the survey data we have.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you so much for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

It is now over to Mr. Lauzon for five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both witnesses for being here. I wish I could have been there in person, but I have a bit of a sore throat and cough, so I'd rather participate remotely.

My question is for both witnesses, Ms. De Jaegher and Mr. Lacroix.

The first witnesses we heard from during our study were mainly student groups. They spoke about the disparity in award amounts, mental health, funding and the scholarship system. Let's break that down piece by piece.

Mr. Lacroix, as I said, students stood up to tell us about the disparity in award amounts. That's not something you address in your recommendations, but can you talk about that?

[Michel Lacroix]

To some extent, the recommendation to increase the number of awards would alleviate some of that disparity. The other point that was made had to do with the disparity between the award amounts available through the various funding mechanisms. For example, the size of the Vanier Canada graduate scholarship is much bigger. That is why, at the very end of my remarks, I recommended distinguishing between scholarships—which give students the ability to focus fully on their research—and the use of awards to recognize a recipient's achievement in excellence. That would put students on more of an equal footing.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

You agree, then, that scholarship policies and programs could be enhanced. Recommendations could be made to improve the system.

Why do your recommendations focus little or not at all on the systems in need of reform? They focus on funding, not on the approach. Would you mind talking about that?

[Michel Lacroix]

The fact that the funding is limited necessarily leads to hyper-selection, so there's a problem. Awarding more funding and giving more awards helps to counter that. At the end of the day, all graduate students should receive support. We would readily agree to moving in that direction, so that every graduate student could work on their research full time.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. De Jaegher, you talked about some of the circumstances students face today that they haven't in recent decades. You talked about how they impact students, specifically how the housing shortage, higher rents and more expensive food costs put a strain on students.

In your recommendations, you mention a 40% increase in Canadian scholarships in 2023‑24. Could you talk about the importance of reconsidering students' needs, in terms of housing and other necessities?

[Justine De Jaegher]

Yes, of course.

Our recommendations today primarily address funding for graduate scholarships and grants.

When the Canada social transfer is reviewed—hopefully, in 2024—we will definitely put forward broader recommendations on the post-secondary education system, specifically regarding provincial transfers and student grants. Those recommendations are forthcoming.

As I said, it's a post-secondary education system, not just a post-secondary research system, but both need better funding.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Can you talk more about the impact on mental health of the various realities you mentioned? How do you, as teachers' representatives, feel about the increasingly tough circumstances students are faced with today?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry. Unfortunately, we've run out of time on that excellent question.

We're going to move to two and a half minutes, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lacroix, further to what I asked you earlier, I'd like to know whether you could get back to the committee clerk with the number and percentage of master's and Ph.D. students receiving federal funding, as well as the number receiving provincial funding? I am mainly interested in researchers and those who receive no funding, so I can draw some comparisons.

Ms. De Jaegher, I'd like to ask you, as well, to send us any statistics you'd like to share. The information will help paint an accurate picture for us and inform potential recommendations.

Mr. Lacroix, you talked about the importance of implementing the recommendations in the Bouchard report—the “Report of the Advisory Panel on the Federal Research Support System”—commissioned by the federal government and released on March 20. One of the panel's recommendations was to increase the three granting councils' total base budgets by 10% over five years.

I'd like to hear your views on the importance of not just increasing scholarships and indexing them to reflect the cost of living, but also ensuring that we have the means to match our ambitions. I'm talking about greater support for the three granting agencies.

[Michel Lacroix]

Thank you very much.

As my colleague just said, it is a system and all the elements are important. Research grants are crucial for supporting the next generation of researchers, particularly through assistantships or scholarships created by sharing a portion of research grants, as is the case in many universities, it should be noted. In a number of institutions in Quebec, researchers work together to offer scholarships to students through their grants. If this is not increased, there will be fewer and fewer grants, and fewer and fewer students will be able to benefit from these grants.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 35 seconds.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I will certainly use them.

Mr. Lacroix, we've talked about the importance of increasing scholarships, indexing them and playing catch-up. Quickly and concretely, what would be the impact and the importance of doing that immediately?

[Michel Lacroix]

The benefits would be considerable, and this is especially important. I strongly urge people to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Ms. De Jaegher, and follow up on that same question.

Although we're mainly talking about the scholarships and fellowships which haven't been increased in 20 years, that's just a portion of funding for grad students, where they get their pay for doing that research. Much of it comes directly out of researcher grants that are, again, supplied by the same tri-councils. That's why most groups have been saying, “We can't just increase and index these scholarships. We have to increase the number and amounts of the actual research grants.”

Is there any relationship, or do you have any data, on the pay that students get from within those grants versus from the scholarship and fellowship track? Are students paid based on what the researchers see other students getting?

[Justine De Jaegher]

Yes, and we can certainly pull some data for you. I don't have that in front of me, unfortunately. Absolutely, a big part of this has to be research funding through the tri-council agencies, because a majority of the funding that graduates receive is not through these direct scholarships, which are, of course, valuable as well, but is through research stipends, paid for by faculty and academic staff.

The reality is that research funding is also not indexed to inflation, so we've seen our members having to pay lower and lower stipends, or hire fewer graduate students at higher stipends to do the same work. Again, it's both sides of the same coin, really, in terms of underfunding.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

My apologies if I missed this in your testimony, but do you have specific recommendations around those research grants? I know the U15 group wanted to see them doubled, for instance. Does CAUT have specific asks about that?

[Justine De Jaegher]

We do endorse the recommendations actually made by the Bouchard report, which was cited earlier. That's a 10% increase, annually, for the next five years. We'd also like to see funding ongoing from there. We've recommended at least $185 million ongoing in terms of increased funding, plus some additional funding for EDI initiatives, dimensions programs, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

The Conservatives and Liberals can each have two and a half minutes.

Mr. Tochor, please ahead.