Science and Research Committee on May 9th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, let me acknowledge all the people who have come here today. I think you see the importance of this study.

Let me humbly point out that I am the first university graduate in my family. I understood what it was like to have to work while studying. I also understood what it was like to dream of going to university. I worked for almost 10 years, Mr. Chair, to save up for my dream of going to university. Today, when I look at these people, I am very proud that they are standing up to send a message to the government, of course, but also to say that things have to change. I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

I will continue with my questions, not forgetting the presence of the people here, particularly Ms. Laframboise, whom I want to thank for her leadership in the Support Our Science movement.

I was going to forget something, but that would be impossible. Last week, I was with them on Parliament Hill, as thousands of students from nearly 50 universities across Canada came to protest to ask the government to take action on scholarship indexing. These students and these people know who was there with them. Government representatives were invited, and I can confirm that they were not. I cannot ignore that. Today, I hear some of government representatives saying that they already know about the problem and they understand it. I'm not sure they really understand it. In any case, if it was so important to them, they would have been there with the students. So much for understanding priorities.

I will turn to you, Professor Andrade. As you said so eloquently, Canada has reached a breaking point in science and research. But I think the situation is even more serious. I think Canada is past the breaking point in science. Canada is the only G7 country to have reduced its investment in research and development as a proportion of its gross domestic product over the past 20 years. It is the only G7 country to have lost researchers since 2016. The federal government is condemning its best and brightest to live below the poverty line during their graduate studies.

I'll give a very concrete example. A basket of service goods that cost $100 in 2003 costs $150.63 in 2023. That is a 50.63% increase. How much have scholarships been indexed over the past 20 years? The answer is zero. Understandably, the math is pretty simple.

Budget 2023 was a perfect opportunity to respond to the investments of our competitors, including the United States, who announced major investments in research, but we have invested zero dollars. This is a complete and utter abandonment of our researchers and students.

Professor Andrade, what can you tell us about that?

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

I think there is a problem with understanding the way research is done. I, like my colleagues, applaud the investments in large complex grants which allow people to come together across fields. Multi-disciplinary research is the answer to the pressing problems of our times. It's no longer stay in your lane, but again, it needs to be understood that it's not the PIs who write those grants and who are doing the work at the bench. It needs to be understood that this amounts to exploitation of young people.

It is important that the 2023 budget did not see these issues as being sufficiently important to change the direction of the budget, and that's why we're here. That's why people who haven't protested in the past are here. That's why the Canadian Black Scientists Network is aligning with our colleagues, because we are, quite frankly, desperate.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

In your presentation, you also explained that it was extremely concerning that highly qualified people had to make such a heartbreaking choice—to continue their education or to leave Canada to go, for example, to the United States. You mentioned that it was more attractive to study there, where conditions are apparently better.

Could you compare in detail the conditions for post-doctoral students in Canada and the United States?

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

Right. I will just say quickly, first I want to make it clear these aren't people who are seeking a lucrative career. Most scientists don't get a lucrative career and don't expect it. They just don't want to be below the poverty line. They want to be able to have a family, etc. The stipends are just much higher. There are more places where they waive your tuition fees. There are more places where there's subsidized housing, especially when you start looking at smaller institutions in Canada that can't afford that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for doing that briefly.

It's over to you, Mr. Cannings, for five minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, and thank you to the witnesses for being here and for the young researchers for witnessing all this, as well. It really means a lot to us.

I'm going to start with Dr. Andrade.

It's good to see you. I think we last saw each other at the entomological congress in Vancouver last year, so it's nice to see you here in Ottawa.

I really like the way you framed this situation where you pointed out that it's grad students who do the work. People do the work, and then if the government says that research, science and innovation is a priority, then naturally people should be that priority. Also the system is a filter, and it's not filtering based on talent, it's filtering based on ability to pay through other means. That leaves so many people behind.

I'll give you a couple of minutes to expand on that.

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

Right. I actually surveyed our members, and a lot of young people did come forward. There were several classes. There were international students who had come here hoping to make a life in Canada doing important research in things like conservation, cancer research, etc., who said, this isn't what I expected. Some of them were post-docs who had previously been in the U.K. and had families. They came here and said, I actually can't live this way. I have to leave Canada. So there's that. We're losing the ability to draw in new talent.

Then there's the homegrown talent, the people grew up in rural Canada. This was actually fairly common. They said, “My family has to pay for me to get to a major centre where there's a university in the first place, and then I can't afford to live there. I need to just get a job.” It's very, very common.

We're trying to raise money for fellowships ourselves, and that's just not an easy thing to do when you're a not-for-profit.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Laframboise, thank you for the work you've done on this issue and for helping organize the walkout that happened last week. You've been involved in this for awhile. You've outlined some of the things that you've done, the letter, the petition, rallies last year, the rallies and walkouts this year.

I assume you've met with government representatives. I'm wondering what response you get from them. What are their answers to your direct ask? For instance, what was the response to the petition? Can you tell me so I have some idea of why this is not happening.

[Sarah Laframboise]

What happened last Friday with the CFREF announcement is a perfect example of what the government's reaction to this has been. It's easy to say that we have invested in science, we have these great infrastructure projects that are no doubt going to happen and will provide some sort of infrastructure for science, but it goes back to what was said earlier. These institutes will be empty. There will be no students to come and work there who can actually afford to be there anymore.

Last year when we did the rallies, we spoke on the Quirks and Quarks podcast. Minister Champagne was quoted on there saying that he was our ally and we were going to hold the throne of Canada's innovation. I completely agree. That's what I want, too. I think we can't do that without investing in graduate students. We can have all these great infrastructure projects, micro projects and these little investments into microscience, but graduate students are the ones doing this. As long as their pay does not change, nothing else is going to change.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll turn to Dr. Douglas and Ms. Messina-Pacheco to get more background on how our system compares to the United States.

We've had the big CHIPS investments in the States that have seen huge increases in research support and what that means.

I'll give you a chance to elaborate on the draw of Canadians to the United States or what are our competitors doing.

[Gavin Douglas]

Absolutely.

I'll start and then I'll pass it over to my colleague.

One aspect is just that the U.S. NSF graduate research fellowship program is the equivalent to the tri-agency grants. The equivalent in Canadian dollars is just under $50,000 per year. It gives you an idea of the difference in these prestigious scholarships that students are receiving.

I believe my colleague can speak to the rest of your question.

[Julia Messina-Pacheco]

Thank you, Gavin.

As others have mentioned, the percentage of GDP that Canada's investing in research and development is far below the OECD average. That is a direct comparison to other countries that are equivalent to us and to what they are putting into their researchers that we absolutely are not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you..

If there are detailed numbers you'd like to send in to the clerk, then please do that.

In the second round, we're going to trim 20% and go to four minutes, four minutes, two minutes and two minutes.

We'll start with Mr. Soroka for four minutes, please.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'll ask one quick question.

The Prime Minister and this government stand before Canadians and say that they're here for Canadians, that they have Canadians' backs and are going to make lives better. Do you believe this statement to be true in your situation?

Anyone who wants to answer it can answer it.

[Sarah Laframboise]

The short answer is no. I think that maybe he thinks—

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'm just looking for short answers, please.

[Sarah Laframboise]

I think he thinks it is.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay.

[Prof. Maydianne Andrade]

I think there's an opportunity for the answer to be yes. That's why we're here.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's a very political answer.

[A voice]

It's a very political question.

[Gavin Douglas]

I agree. I think this is a political question.

I would say that, in our particular case, obviously we do not agree.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's fine.

I'll cede my time to Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will put my questions to Ms. Laframboise.

Ms. Laframboise, you know that Canada ranks near the bottom of the 38 OECD countries. In fact, it ranks 26th in its graduate graduation rate. However, we are well aware of the consequences of not indexing scholarships for almost 20 years now. They include economic insecurity and effects on students' mental health, as well as brain drain.

I would like to hear your perspective as a representative of the Support Our Science movement. Students who do not have parents who can support them financially often have to give up on a university education. This is what I did for many years, almost 10 years; I worked to save money to achieve my dream of going to university. How can a G7 country discriminate between students from privileged families and others? I am thinking of students in remote areas in particular, who often have to move, pay rent, work to survive and pursue their university dream.

Do you have any data showing that some people give up on graduate school because of a lack of financial support?