Science and Research Committee on May 16th, 2023

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

We're talking about government support.

Can you share with us the private sector's engagement with some of these endeavours and how students are being serviced that way?

Dr. Martin, we haven't heard from you. Do you have an answer for that one?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about 10 seconds.

[Dr. Joel Martin, Chief Science Officer, National Research Council of Canada]

I don't have a direct answer, but as Shannon was just mentioning, we do have IRAP under the YESS, which is a way of connecting students to industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses who are participating in our important study today.

It is always a bit ridiculous to hear members of the government claim that Canada is a leader in research. The reality, or the truth, is that Canada is the only G7 country that has lost researchers since 2016. Therefore, it is not a leader. Canada ranks 26th out of 38 countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in graduate graduation rates. Is that a leader? No. That is not the reality in Canada, and it is not the truth. I could talk at length about the data that show that Canada has a lot of potential, but that it has a long way to go. We have to recognize the reality, and above all, we have to tell people the truth.

Mr. Vats, it's a pleasure to have you here with us. As I mentioned, Canada is the only G7 country to have lost researchers since 2016. You clearly know that Canada has not increased or indexed its graduate scholarships in 20 years now. Has your organization studied the causes of this brain drain? Have there been any reports on that? What can you tell us about it?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Thank you for the question.

It is clear that federal scholarships have not increased in 20 years. In the 1990s, when I was a student, the amounts were—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Vats, I'll go back to the question. Has your organization considered the issue? Have any reports been produced? Have there been any reflexions on that?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Do you mean in terms of scholarship amounts or in terms of our place in the world in research?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I repeat the question. The question is about the brain drain. Canada is the only G7 country to have lost researchers since 2016. Canada has not increased or indexed scholarships in the past 20 years.

Has your organization looked at those two issues? Are there any reports, studies or data that you can share with us today?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

With respect to scholarships, the data are there. I do not think we need to do any studies to see that the amounts have not increased. We have the numbers in front of us. So it is quite clear.

With regard to brain loss, I may not have read the same reports you have in front of you. I know that the research community in Canada is concerned about this loss. All I have heard are examples, but I do not have any data indicating that there is a genuine brain drain from Canada.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Vats, the data I read can be found in the pre-budget submissions of the U15, which is the grouping of the 15 largest research universities in Canada. In the submissions for 2023 and 2022, they are named. I invite you to look at them, because it is more than worrisome; it is worrisome and alarming.

You are telling me that you do not need to prepare reports or carry out studies. What do you say to the minister and to cabinet when you try to advise them on public policy and the fact that there has been no indexation for 20 years now?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

As a public servant, I explained the problem to the minister. He himself said that he was aware that there was something to fix. The government has not yet found a specific solution, but as you said and as I have reiterated, the problem is there and it is obvious.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Vats, you have provided some advice on this, but I understand that there is no political will to act.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

That's not what I said. I said that the government had not yet found a solution, but that it was discussing this issue.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Okay.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

The minister has had a lot of discussions with members of the university community, as well, to better understand the needs. There are still—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'll continue with my questions.

Mr. Vats, how long have you been the assistant deputy minister of the science and research sector?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

For about five years.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Okay. Are you familiar with the Miller report?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

Yes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Perfect. What year is it from?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It was published in 2018, I believe.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

It was in 2017, more precisely. It was commissioned in 2016 by the federal government, by the same party that is in power today. You commissioned a new report, which led to the Bouchard report in March 2023, and it made the same finding: We've reached a breaking point with respect to graduate scholarships.

You tell me that we already have the data and the reports and that you are giving advice. So what is preventing things from moving forward? Explain that to us today, please.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I don't have a good explanation for you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas. I would say that after the Miller report, there were a lot of investments in the research system, particularly in scholarships and grants for researchers.

The Bouchard report specifically targeted the research support system. There is a small part of the report that focuses on funding for students and researchers, and it is important, but there are many other aspects of this report that are a little different from what was in the Miller report...

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Vats, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but time is running out...