Evidence of meeting #44 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was graduate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nipun Vats  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry
Shannon Quinn  Secretary General, National Research Council of Canada
Joel Martin  Chief Science Officer, National Research Council of Canada
Alejandro Adem  President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council
Ted Hewitt  President, Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council
Michael Strong  President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Manal Bahubeshi  Vice-President, Research Partnerships, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council
Marc Fortin  Vice-President, Research Grants and Scholarships Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

We'll get started on our second round.

Welcome back, and welcome to those who have just joined us. We're hoping to have Mr. Strong join us from CIHR . That wasn't the security alert we just got, but if he can hear us, maybe he can join us.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 14, 2023, the committee resumes its study of the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs.

It's my pleasure to welcome CIHR, Canadian Institutes of Health Research. So far we have Christian Baron, vice-president, research, by video conference. We have, from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, Alejandro Adem, president; Manal Bahubeshi, vice-president, research partnerships; and Marc Fortin, vice-president, research grants and scholarships directorate. From across the ocean, we have joining us from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, Ted Hewitt, president; Sylvie Lamoureux, vice-president, research; and Valérie La Traverse, vice-president, corporate affairs, via video conference.

Thank you to all for coming.

This is just a reminder for those on Zoom to mute your mike unless you're addressing us, and to address members through the chair.

Thank you to our translators. We did have an issue in the House yesterday when a headset was too close to the microphone, so we had terrible feedback. Please, as a courtesy and for the safety for our translators, keep devices separate, and keep the microphone away from you.

We'll start with the five-minute opening comments.

We'll start with Alejandro Adem from NSERC, please.

12:05 p.m.

Dr. Alejandro Adem President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Alejandro Adem. I am president of the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, commonly known as NSERC. Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you for a third time to discuss this critical issue.

Let me introduce my colleagues, Manal Bahubeshi, vice-president of research partnerships, and Marc Fortin, vice-president of research grants and scholarships.

As you know from your recent study, talent underpins the health, well-being and economic success of our country. The pool of talent supported by NSERC and the other granting agencies plays a critical role in powering research, innovation and economic development in Canada.

NSERC directly supports around 7,000 students and post-doctoral fellows through scholarship and fellowship awards, and we indirectly support tens of thousands more through grants to researchers who use those grants to provide trainee stipends. This indirect support for talent is a component of all our programs, including partnered research and research taking place in colleges and communities across the country, and accounts for over $400 million per year.

It is important to note that the value of scholarships and fellowships offered by the granting agencies helps dictate research stipends and other kinds of compensation for trainees and fellows across the country. It is also a fact that the value of these awards has not changed substantially in a generation. For example, NSERC's doctoral award has remained almost constant at $21,000 per year since 2004. Considering inflation, the effective award value has dropped by 42% in this period.

This poses a real challenge to students when it comes to covering their basic costs of living. We know that disadvantaged students are more likely to accumulate debt during their undergraduate degree, and may find it challenging to continue on to master's and Ph.D. level programs if financial supports are not considered viable. We also know that we are losing top talent to other countries that are able to offer significantly higher award values.

NSERC constantly re-evaluates the balance between the number of student awards it offers and the monetary value of these awards.

Recent investments by the Government of Canada have enabled the granting agencies to increase the overall number of students they support through scholarship and fellowship awards. In 2019, 600 new Canada graduate scholarships were funded across the tri-agencies. The tri-agencies are rolling out funding from budget 2022 to support over 450 Black trainees from undergraduate awards through to post-doctoral fellowships.

NSERC also recently increased award values for the undergraduate student research awards program from $4,500 to $6,000.

Also, to help provide greater stability for Ph.D. students, NSERC, SSHRC and CIHR have increased the duration of the doctoral scholarships from two or three years for certain awardees to three years for all.

Looking ahead, under the direction of the Canada research coordinating committee, NSERC is leading the development of a tri-agency talent strategy, and a large-scale evaluation of our talent programming will be publicly released this fall. The granting agencies are actively working together to ensure that our talent programming is responsive to the needs of today and tomorrow, preparing trainees with the skills that will be needed in the workforce of the future, and positioning Canada as an internationally competitive country. As such, we are exploring opportunities to modernize and streamline our talent programs to make it easier for applicants to apply and to ensure that programs continue to meet their objectives, while also meeting the needs of each agency's distinct research communities.

The talent supported by NSERC and other granting agencies is the bedrock of Canada's research and innovation ecosystem, and needs to be adequately supported if we are to prepare our workforce of tomorrow with the skills that will help Canada remain internationally competitive.

Thank you for the chance to share my thoughts with you today. I would be pleased to answer any questions you have.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you very much.

Next we'll have Mr. Hewitt from SSHRC.

Welcome to the committee.

12:10 p.m.

Dr. Ted Hewitt President, Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the invitation to speak again before the standing committee, along with my colleagues Madam Lamoureux and Madam La Traverse.

I am very pleased to appear before you today in my capacity as president of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, often referred to as the SSHRC.

The SSHRC is the federal research funding agency that supports post-secondary research and research training in the social sciences and humanities. It is also responsible for the administration of many prestigious multi-agency national programs focused on research funding, such as the Canada research chairs program and the Canada excellence research chairs program. Finally, it houses the secretariat of the Canada Research Coordinating Committee, or CRCC, which I am proud to currently chair.

With respect to research training and talent development programs and initiatives, the SSHRC fosters the development of talented and creative individuals in the social sciences and humanities disciplines, whether in history, geography, international relations or business and economics. These individuals will become leaders on campus and in communities and contribute to Canada's success in this 21st century characterized by globalization.

In 2021-22, SSHRC supported more than 4,900 graduate students at the master's and Ph.D. levels and post-doctoral fellows directly through scholarships and fellowships representing an investment of about $124 million. SSHRC also supported over 4,200 students and fellows indirectly through grants that were awarded to researchers at post-secondary institutions across Canada, which accounted for an additional $72 million in support.

SSHRC, like NSERC and the other agencies, is attentive to the growing calls for increased investment in research scholarships and fellowships. The fact is that, as you know well, despite being a core component of the Canadian funding landscape, award amounts have been largely stagnant for nearly 20 years and have not kept pace with inflation. The stagnating value of awards is definitely putting a burden on research trainees and fellows, making it more challenging for them to focus on their research and develop their skills. In fact, students in the social sciences and humanities in particular face added constraints in seeking indirect sources of research funding, such as through grants, as compared with their peers in the natural sciences and health disciplines, which tend to be much better funded.

That being said, given the funds available for this purpose within our system, there has always been a tension between raising the value of awards versus increasing their number, which we have effectively done over the last two decades. It's also worth noting that the federal government is not the sole source of funding for graduate students, and nor does funding from this source account for the majority of support provided to students. Provinces and universities themselves are extremely important partners in this process as well.

Perhaps now is the time to address both these realities, as we can all agree that supporting the next generation of researchers in Canada from across all disciplines has never been more critical. It is key to sustaining Canada's leadership and strength in research and to helping us respond to global threats and seize opportunities that will create a better future for all of us.

How to do this is an issue that needs to be addressed collectively, both inside and outside the granting agencies. That's why I look forward to participating in today's discussion about how we might work together to better support graduate training and research.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

Thank you.

I have a note here that online translation from French to English isn't working.

Could we double-check that it's still okay before we go to our next speaker?

Okay. Thank you to the translators, and thank you for the check.

We'll now go to Dr. Strong from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research for five minutes.

Welcome to the committee.

May 16th, 2023 / 12:15 p.m.

Dr. Michael Strong President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. Both as CIHR's president and as a scientist, I consider it a privilege to address this committee, and more so since this committee has drawn attention in its first two reports to the issue of underfunding of graduate students in Canada and in particular to the fact that in Canada we have graduate students and post-doctoral fellows living below the poverty line. Many often hold down multiple jobs in order to attain their graduate degrees and the experience necessary to join the workforce whether that be in academia or in the private sector.

As the president of CIHR, I have a unique opportunity to meet with graduate students across this country as I regularly visit university campuses. Uniformly graduate students and post-doctoral fellows clearly express their dedication to research and to making lasting impacts for the health of Canadians, but I have also heard their concerns that the failure of support at this most crucial moment in time as they embark on meaningful and engaging research careers sends a strong signal as to what the future may hold.

When I speak with their supervisors, many of whom, like me, have had rich and rewarding careers as Canadian researchers, they speak openly about the difficulties in recruiting Canadian students into the pathway of being researchers and about why many are beginning to consider training outside of Canada.

As the Government of Canada's health research funding agency, we have a mandate to support peer-reviewed research of the highest calibre. We have a bold ten-year strategic plan, and it speaks to attaining the best health for all, powered by outstanding research, a vision that is dependent on talented research teams based at universities, hospitals and other research and community organizations in all corners of this country.

In this plan we make the commitment that we will foster both health research capacity in Canada and sustainable careers for individual researchers, and we are clear that this commitment to career sustainability includes our training programs.

The vast majority of CIHR's budget is devoted to funding research, through peer-reviewed research grants on topics selected by the individuals or teams of researchers, in support of strategic research directions deemed critical by the Government of Canada.

This direct research investment has resulted in some of Canada's and the world's greatest scientific achievements. We need only look at the discovery of lipid nanoparticles 20 years ago by a Canadian, Pieter Cullis, to understand how important our contributions continue to be, or to the discovery of novel CAR T-cell therapies that will save the Canadian health system literally tens of millions of dollars while making available this crucial cancer therapy in all corners of the country. The Canadian research ecosystem is rife with such examples.

However, these same funds are also the main source of financial support for master's and doctoral scholarships and post-doctoral fellowships in that these trainees are paid directly through the grants of their supervisors. In fact, we estimate that $129 million in support was invested through stipends to graduate students and post-doctoral fellows paid through operating grants this last fiscal year alone.

Along with our sister agencies, CIHR participates in the Canada graduate scholarship program at both the doctoral and the master's program level, investing over $192 million over the last five years. We also see as a critical step supporting the development of our next generation of researchers to provide fellowship programs, programs that provide support for highly qualified applicants in all areas of health research at the post-Ph.D. or post-health professional degree level. These fellowships support them in developing their leadership potential and position them for success as researchers of tomorrow in a very tangible way. In the last five years, CIHR has invested over $121 million in post-graduate fellowships.

By way of example, in early 2021 in the midst of the pandemic, CIHR launched the health research training platform pilot funding opportunity with over $28 million in funding. In addition to providing financial support for trainees, the 12 platforms funded by this program provide the necessary support for experiences and skills needed to lead to high-impact interdisciplinary health research careers in a rapidly evolving research landscape. They provide access to interdisciplinary, interjurisdictional and intersectorial training environments so that Canada's next researchers can benefit from high-calibre mentors.

More recently, we invested $4 million in the innovative health system impact program, which provides highly qualified Ph.D. candidates, post-doctoral researchers and early career researchers opportunities for health research.

In all of these programs, we focus on strengthening the research talent pipeline in accordance with principles of equity, diversity, inclusion and anti-racism. Our goal is to remove systemic barriers to accessing research training funding and to embrace these diverse initiatives.

For example, we're currently piloting an initiative that we are exceptionally proud of, which is called the CIHR research excellence, diversity and independence early career transition award, otherwise known as REDI. This groundbreaking award is an early career transition award for Black and marginalized female scholars that provides significant research support in their training programs and, in partnership with universities, funding in the early parts of their research career.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

We'll have to cut it off there. Maybe you can give the rest of your testimony as part of your answers, Dr. Strong.

Thank you.

We'll start off with our six-minute rounds. We're going to be very tight on time, so we'll be watching it closely.

We're starting off with Mr. Lobb.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thanks very much, Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Adem.

Is there a role for businesses to pay more into the topic we're discussing today?

12:20 p.m.

President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Dr. Alejandro Adem

Thank you very much for the question.

Absolutely. Encouraging businesses in the private sector to get into R and D in Canada, I think, is one of the priorities of the government. Previously I was the CEO of Mitacs. There's a partnership program for internships in industry for graduate students. We have a program called Alliance that builds partnerships between academic partners and industry, and the students work on problems from the real world, from the industrial sector or not-for-profits. There is cash on the table that they provide.

I think the more we can do of that the better.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

When you provide grants to these opportunities we're discussing today, are there any business dollars coming in to match up with these dollars?

12:20 p.m.

President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Dr. Alejandro Adem

Through our Alliance program, it's research partnerships. Indeed, there is a partnership between what we provide and a matching amount that is provided. This provides opportunities for the students and the researchers to work on the particular strategic projects, which will be a benefit to the company and to Canada.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Mr. Hewitt and Mr. Adem, is there a list of all the projects, of all the different disciplines that are allocated? Is there a list that we could have on this study that says there were this many studies or this many dollars given out to these students, and here's what they studied?

Is there a list somewhere that this committee could look at to have some basis of this?

12:25 p.m.

President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Dr. Alejandro Adem

We have dashboards for our Alliance program. Maybe I'll pass it over to our vice-president for research partnerships.

12:25 p.m.

Manal Bahubeshi Vice-President, Research Partnerships, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

With respect to your question, we do have information on the grants that we've provided. We also have a database that provides the awards, the award amounts, etc. We are able to furnish information if we—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Right into the granular detail as to the topic on which they're working....

12:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Research Partnerships, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Manal Bahubeshi

We can furnish the title of the project, yes.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Okay. That's good.

I would imagine that 99.9% of the topics studied are important, but I think it was the Record in Kitchener that posted this thing, and I couldn't believe it. There was a research project done, studying Dolly Parton's lyrics. I'm pretty sure there were some federal dollars involved. I don't suppose NSERC is funding any projects like that. How do we assure taxpayers there's no tri-council granting dollars going to study what Dolly Parton wrote about?

Ted, would you want to comment on that at all? Give us some context here so that we don't have any types of things like this.

12:25 p.m.

President, Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council

Dr. Ted Hewitt

I can't comment on that particular project. I know we're certainly able to provide you and members, and anyone—and I do this quite often for MPs, as many of the members will know—with lists and topics of things that are being researched.

I can tell you that whatever is being proposed is subject to expert or, what we call, merit review. Under the criteria of the program, they're assessed in this way and funded on the basis of excellence.

I would say sometimes it's important to look beyond the titles to see exactly what people are doing and what the impact and benefit to Canada would be.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Sure. I can't complain about that.

I'm sorry, Mr. Adem. You're the guy here in person today, so you're on the hot seat here.

Not all, but some of the universities in this country, I would say, are very, and I don't know if “wealthy” is the right word to say.... They have billion-dollar endowment funds. They have big salaries. I'm not saying that's with their professors, but certainly there are big salaries in the administration.

I don't want to put you on the spot here, because probably some of these guys are your colleagues. Do you think before we go much further we need to really look at this, and say, “Look, you're coming to us for more money, but look on the other side. You have almost $3.5 billion in your endowment fund. What are we doing?”

Do we need to have a discussion as a country on this?

12:25 p.m.

President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council

Dr. Alejandro Adem

I think the university ecosystem should have discussions about that, because the support for graduate students is a combined approach, as my colleague Ted Hewitt mentioned before. A rarity is a student supported just by tri-council. It could also be teaching assistantships and funds from provincial and private donors.

What is the acceptable minimum wage for a graduate student at a university in a big city? That's something I think universities should address. There's also the element of tuition and how that factors in.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thank you.

I have one last thing I'd like to get to, but I'm probably—

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

You have 40 seconds.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Forty seconds is plenty of time.

I know all of you folks here are very intelligent. You probably have more brains in your little fingers than I have in my head. I would imagine it must be frustrating at some level to see all the money spent on some of the pork-barrel projects that the government comes up with throughout the years. We have an issue. These hard-working, intelligent people can't get a fair shake at a dollar. All they would have to do is redirect that waste—which we can't show for, anyway—to you folks and what you're trying to do for these students.

Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't want to—

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield

You have run out of time, Mr. Lobb. I'll have to cut you off there, but you've given us some food for thought.

I'll go over to Ms. Metlege Diab for six minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start off by thanking all the witnesses who are here today from the three councils.

You have been here before and I'm sure you will be here again. I agree with my colleague Mr. Lobb that the talent, expertise and education you all have, I have no doubt, far outweigh that of most MPs. I'll say “most”, because I don't know all the MPs, or government or anything. Thank you so much for being here and giving us your time, experience and knowledge to delve into this particular topic that obviously hasn't been looked at in this way in the last 20 years. I'm glad we're here.

I'm going to start off with two questions. Mr. Hewitt, I'll start with you, because you brought them out, but in whatever time I have remaining, I would like to have all three of you, if possible, deal with them. If you can't now, perhaps submit it in writing.

I'm going to say the two questions, then I'm going to leave it open for you to talk about them.

Last week, we heard from other witnesses about raising the value of awards versus the number of awards. We're calling them students, but some of these people are not students. These are post-doctoral geniuses, as far as I'm concerned. That's one question I have: What do we do? Quite frankly, who decides these things? It can't be government, I don't think. Who decides and how do we deal with that? I'll start with that.

The second one, and if we don't have time, I'd like to get something in writing, was alluded to a few times. What is the balance—I imagine each of the three councils is different—between federal, provincial and private sources of funding? How do we deal with that? How do we assess it? What kind of balance...? Surely it's not just the federal government that is responsible here.

Dr. Hewitt, please go ahead.