Science and Research Committee on May 16th, 2023

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I get the impression that, while you're providing this information to the government to make a decision, you're also hearing requests from the government to think about getting less in coming years by going through exercises regarding budget cuts. Is that right?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

You're referring to what was announced, I believe, in the budget decision. There's going to be a cut across government, and we're part of that exercise as is every department in government.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I will turn to Dr. Hewitt.

You've been mentioning that these aren't the only sources of income for many graduate students. Some have opportunities for teaching assistantships, and there are top-ups that departments provide. It's also generally known that the share of income for universities that comes from the government has been steadily declining for 30 years or so, so universities are having a tough time. We heard from one of our witnesses the other day that she's been advising universities and university departments to cut down on the number of grad students because they're having trouble providing these funds for the top-ups that are necessary for students to basically find a place to live and feed themselves and their families.

Isn't there that real pressure to increase these scholarships and fellowships, especially if they are considered the standard for other programs?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

Thanks for that question.

I absolutely agree, but the reality, as I think the committee is aware, is that we're funding a minority of students. In fact, it's not a large minority of students, so in effect we can increase the rates, and we've certainly been saying that. This serves as a reference rate that can be used for students who are paid through other means, such as grants, but also perhaps as a signal to provinces as well that they need to contribute more.

I don't know whether you have plans to invite representatives of the universities to speak to you about how they fund graduate students, but I think they might be in a better position to answer that, as we know that provincial rates of support for universities have been falling, and reliance on tuition has been increasing. That tuition is also coming from graduate students, which eats into the support we provide them at the federal level.

If we don't think about solutions that incorporate all the players and all the partners, we're not going to solve the problem in a satisfactory way.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'll turn to Dr. Strong and ask more or less the same question.

I also want to thank you for mentioning my friend, Pieter Cullis. Perhaps people around this table are getting bored with me bringing up his name and that example so often.

Again, we've been hearing how the number of scholarships has been increased to help more students, but that in itself doesn't help them. They still have to find extra funding to live, basically, to provide these top-ups.

I know you've answered this in some ways before, but just to reiterate, increasing these scholarship and fellowship amounts to reflect what's been happening with inflation over the last 20 years would have a very valuable impact on the lives of these students.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Very briefly.

[Dr. Michael Strong]

It would have an immediate and tangible impact.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to our next round. We have 15 minutes carved out, which will take us a little bit past the top of the hour, so we're just getting permission to be able to offer that.

Mr. Mazier, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

At this committee, students have shared the hardships they are facing because of the Liberal government's cost of living crisis. Witnesses have repeatedly called on the current government to support graduate students and post-doctoral fellows. Their requests have been ignored, but they are still looking for answers.

The first question is for NSERC.

Your June 30, 2022, quarterly financial report states, “The authority of Parliament is required before the Government of Canada can spend money. Approvals are given in the form of annually approved limits through appropriation acts or through legislation in the form of statutory spending authorities for specific purposes.”

Does parliamentary authority limit your ability as a body to reallocate funds in your own budget to increase the value of scholarships and fellowships?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We can do this, but under sort of limited circumstances, and it depends on the particular program. Some of them are ring-fenced. The situation for us is that 33,000 graduate students are supported by the grants—that's indirect support—and all the international students that we bring in.... The rest are a small number supported directly by the scholarships.

The question is whether you are going to reduce the number that are supported or whether you are hoping for an increase, which is what the community tends to communicate to us.

I should also say that, because you co-operate so closely with the other agencies, we don't do unilateral actions without doing it in concert for the whole sector.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Could you provide a list of which ones are ring-fenced?

I guess that's a term of, basically, you are limited. That would be the layman's term.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Absolutely, we can provide that information.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Why are they ring-fenced?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Maybe I'll pass it on to my colleague with more knowledge about such things.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

Those are decisions or initiatives that are announced by government in various budgets over the years.

The government will make an investment, for example, in Black scholars, better supporting Black scholars, as was announced last year.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Or increasing wages in general....

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

That could be.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. That's good.

This question is for the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.

In 2021-22, your organization had a budget of $815.5 million in discretionary funds, giving your organization the financial flexibility to support a variety of programs. Is there anything preventing you from using these funds to increase financial supports to graduate or post-doctoral students?

[Dr. Michael Strong]

I'll need to get back to you with a written response as to how those dollars are allocated. Many of them are already attributed specifically to programs that I would not be able to access. As for the exact amount, though, we will follow up directly with that response.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You are a supervisor, as you suggested earlier. Is there anything limiting you from paying...? When you set up your budgets, can you allocate more to the student at the end of the day?

[Dr. Michael Strong]

The answer to that is yes, there is nothing that would preclude me from doing that as a supervisor. The issue is that, at the end of the day, for the vast majority of funding for CIHR investigators, you have a fixed amount of funding. If you increase to the students, there is less towards the research that needs to be done in the lab as well. It's a very precarious balance.

The direct answer to your question is that there is nothing that would preclude that.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'm sort of following up on what Mr. Lobb and Mr. Cannings mentioned.

Again, $815 million is a lot of money. It's a lot of money floating around in the system. How much is allocated for students versus the big scheme of things?

Maybe we need one fewer pipette—I don't know—or 10 fewer. Those are the kind of questions that I can't get over that aren't being asked as you set up these budgets.

My third question is for NSERC.

In 2021, the government put in place stricter guidelines to require national security reviews for academics seeking federal funding from your organization. Can you provide in writing to this committee how many applications have been denied under these new guidelines and the reason they were denied?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Absolutely, we can provide that information.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you very much.

That's all I have, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, Mr. Mazier.

Now we go to Ms. Bradford, please, for five minutes.