Science and Research Committee on May 16th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vats, if I heard you correctly, you said that students play a critical role for the scientific ecosystem, as they do research, which leads to innovation. I also understood from what you told us that you would not have any great answers for us today about the fact that the federal government has not indexed graduate scholarships for 20 years now.

As the assistant deputy minister for science and research, if you cannot answer, who can answer that for us?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

The question of why there has not been an increase in scholarship amounts is a historical question that has been around for 20 years. We could look at the decisions that have been made or not made over those years.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Vats, I don't know if I should ask you the question in English.

If it's not you, who?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I'll answer in English, if I may, sir.

On the question of why there hasn't been an increase for 20 years, as I said, it's over a number of governments and cycles. It's a question that's amenable to study, but I don't have a specific response. There wouldn't be a single answer to that question.

On the question of who actually takes the decisions on investments, it's successive governments. Over time, governments have certainly invested in the research system overall. The amounts have increased over time quite considerably.

This aspect of the system has stayed stagnant. I think there's an acknowledgement that this is the case.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

All right. Speaking of solutions, the Bouchard report, which you are obviously familiar with, says:

As a result, the panel also urges the government to significantly increase funding for students and postdoctoral fellows to an internationally competitive level.

I mentioned earlier that Canada was the only G7 country to lose researchers since 2016. As you know, the largest research funding program in the United States has doubled its funding. I don't need to tell you how much the Canadian federal government invested in research in its last budget: it was $0.

So I want to understand. From your perspective as a policy adviser, what do you tell the government in this situation?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

There are a couple of things to that.

I think you're referring to the Chips and Science Act in the U.S. The bill passed in Congress, but the science appropriation never happened. It is true that, in the U.S. case, the science part in the Chips and Science Act did commit to a very large increase in the budget of the NSF. However, that has actually not been funded. There have been increases, but they haven't been funded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Mr. Cannings, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Ms. Quinn.

Thank you for mentioning Donna Strickland. It's a great example of what we can do well in Canada with science, obviously. I had the pleasure of hearing Dr. Strickland speak a couple of weeks ago at a Bacon and Eggheads breakfast here in Ottawa. Unfortunately, I think I was the only MP there to hear her.

She brought up the issue of funding graduate students and how she was supportive of their cause. It's interesting. She mentioned she had a PDF grant. I didn't know it was an NRC one.

My question is about those PDF grants you provide through the NRC. What is their amount and how does that compare with the grants provided through NSERC or any of the other tri-councils?

[Dr. Shannon Quinn]

I'll give you a general response while my colleague Dr. Martin looks for the numbers.

When they join us, they come on force as a work opportunity. The remuneration is more from the perspective that they're joining us in a term position on force.

I'll turn this over to my colleague Dr. Martin, who can speak a bit more to some of the salary ranges we provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about 45 seconds.

[Dr. Joel Martin]

We can provide you with details on the salary ranges.

For the post-docs, we bring them in at our assistant researcher officer level. We have a scale for people we hire at the NRC. One example is that 11 of our new hires were brought in at a salary range between $74,000 and $103,000, depending on their level of experience.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

That's well above what they would get through the tri-councils. That's all I need to know.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. Those were great questions.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vats, short of having great answers, I'm going to ask you some great questions and ask for the following data. I would like you and your department to provide the committee with the number of graduate and postdoctoral fellowships awarded by your council, and their values, since 2003. I would also like you to provide the committee with the evolution of the number of Canada's Graduate Scholarships for master's and doctoral students, Vanier Canada Graduate Scholarships, and Banting Postdoctoral Fellowships awarded, and their values, since 2003.

With that, we will be able to paint a picture and, of course, come back to you, although you know very well that we already have two fine reports. Indeed, the Naylor and Bouchard reports indicate that we are at the breaking point. So I don't need to tell you any more about that.

I would now like to hear your comments on the following fact. Last April, Quebec announced an increase in the value of its graduate scholarships, that is, at the master's and doctoral levels, which are administered by the Fonds de recherche du Québec. This represents an increase of about 15% at the master's level and almost 19% at the doctoral level. What makes it important for the Quebec government to increase its graduate scholarships, but not for the federal government?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I have spoken to the leadership of the Quebec research fund and I think the step they have taken is a good one. As I said, the government has asked Mr. Bouchard to submit a report. The government will study the recommendations and make decisions about investments in the system.

That's really where we are right now.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

All right.

I'm going to try to give you some rink time, because you're going to have to convince us. In your opinion, what are the most important recommendations from the Bouchard report, besides adding more graduate scholarships?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I would say the importance of improving coordination between research disciplines.

It's also to have a much stronger coordinated presence internationally in terms of how we actually work with our partners, and to be able to really seize the benefits of a research ecosystem—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Don't you have anything to say about the 10% increase in funding for the three granting agencies over the next five years?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I think funding in the system is important. Whether the numbers that Mr. Bouchard has put forward are—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Why didn't you start with that recommendation if it's so important?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We're at time, unfortunately.

To wind this up, Mr. Lauzon, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First and foremost, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Vats, investing in higher education is critical to ensure that every dollar is well spent, effectively and efficiently. We've all heard you talk about this.

I'd like you to talk about the awarding process rather than the granting agencies. Given your key role in developing science and research policy, can you talk a little about the effectiveness of this process and your interim system for reviewing it, since the way you award these grants is constantly evolving? Can you tell us a bit about your plan to improve the awarding of grants?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

First, I would say that the granting councils are perhaps in a slightly better position to answer this question than I am, because the amounts we award for scholarships are part of the funding bases belonging to those agencies.

However, when it comes to policy, we're trying to improve our ability to fund students working in somewhat more interdisciplinary fields. Sometimes it's difficult for them because their field overlaps into the jurisdictions of more than one granting council.

I will continue in English, if I may.

I think that the agencies do a very good job in delivering their traditional scholarships and fellowships. We can debate the values, but I think that, in terms of how they spend the money, they do it very efficiently.

I think the challenges are around the things that don't fit nicely within one agency or another. There are lots of research initiatives today that really cut across, and I think the agencies are working to try to figure out how to make those connections more effective across agencies.

It's a little about what's in the Bouchard report as well, how you deal with those more effectively.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for the great testimony and to the members for great questions.

We'll suspend for a minute or two while we set up our next panel.