Evidence of meeting #54 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you very much.
How do you think we should deal with co‑operation between the various countries? For example, Australia has some mechanisms in place. Australian universities must inform the government whenever there are partnerships or collaborations with foreign countries of focus.
What do you think of those measures? Also, based on your expertise, how should we deal with collaborations with different countries?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I certainly think that Australia's measure is an interesting one: simply stating transparently what the proposed partnerships are. That's one piece of it, but there are a lot of other pieces as well.
We have to keep in mind as well that China does not have a reciprocal arrangement with us. They want all of our work, but they are less than keen to share with us what they've been doing. They have a massive database for their research. In March, they closed the entire database to foreign researchers. They have strategic technology areas that are reviewed before publishing. If it's too strategic and sensitive, it won't be published, even if it was developed with foreign researchers.
These are some of the things we need to keep in mind when we're reviewing researchers from China.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. McCuaig‑Johnston.
I want to go back to the guidelines and the progress.
In 2021, the national security guidelines for research partnerships were published.
What progress do you think has been made two years later on the issue of research safety, and what obstacles have been encountered in the process?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
As I said, I believe those are very useful guidelines, as far as they go. They are user-friendly for professors, who can review and assess every one of their research partnerships against those guidelines. They can raise any questions with their office of research and international relations if they have any questions or concerns.
The major research universities now have national security research officers, who usually have national security experience.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's terrific. Thank you. You did well in getting the answer in under time.
Now we'll turn virtually to Richard Cannings from the NDP.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
Thank you to both witnesses for being with us today. It's a very interesting topic.
I would like to follow up on what Mr. Blanchette-Joncas was talking about with Ms. McCuaig-Johnston: these guidelines, and the lists of institutions and topics to avoid.
Is there a sense out there that these are being followed? Between the provinces and the federal government, it's a very tricky landscape. I'm wondering where we are in terms of having the capacity to track down all those partnerships and arrangements.
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Is that question for me?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
In fact, we haven't really embarked yet on giving the lists to the universities. We said that anything they put forward that the granting councils, in consultation with ISED and CSIS, think are sensitive will be reviewed. What we really need to do is give the lists of the institutions to the universities and tell them that they will not partner with any of these.
Also, I believe—and this was also suggested by Mr. Houlden—that it is also the topics and disciplines. Even for something seemingly innocent at a civilian university, we know that civilian researchers are obliged to partner with the Chinese military, if they're asked to do so, under the policy for the integration of military and civilian technology development. This is the thing that got me really concerned about this situation many years ago.
It's both a list of institutions and a list of topics. I guess the worst-case scenario, in my mind, would be if the universities were given simply a very narrow list of universities that have the words “military” or “defence” in them. That would not be sufficient at all.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Do you foresee a need for a federal-provincial agreement that would come up with such a combined list, so that we can have some sense that this is really being taken care of on a national level?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
A lot of this work has been done already by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. We can adopt their list with great comfort and security.
For the federal government to convey to the provinces how the list was developed, maybe have some people from ASPI come and meet with them and go through it with them. That would go a long way, I believe, toward helping the provinces, which have been looking for guidance on this. They don't want to do the wrong thing. They don't want to be helping the PLA, but they need clear directions, guidelines and checklists so they can be sure they're being safe.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
You see the federal government providing some of that capacity because some provinces may say that they can't check all these things that are going on in our universities.
Would that be a role that the federal government could play, as long as the provinces agreed on that list and those guidelines?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, Mr. Chair. I think that would be a very good place to start.
Having come from the world of federal-provincial relations, I know that those things can drag on. I would hope that those consultations would be held in a very speedy manner, which will convey the level of urgency that we all have for these questions.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Finally, quickly, you mentioned that there was some security vetting of research proposals, and two-thirds of them were sent back.
Can you give me more detail on that? How many proposals were looked at? Were these all proposals to the tri-council?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I believe it was around 36 of the NSERC proposals in the first round. I believe that's where that two-thirds statistic came from. Again, it's a very concerning number.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Were these turned back because of the institutions they were partnered with?
Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and Institute of Science, Society and Policy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I believe that a more detailed national security review was done for each of those, which involved both ISED and CSIS officials.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
I must be getting close to the end of my time.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Okay.
I'll just turn to Ms. Puglisi, then, and ask what would be the best way forward for a country like Canada.
Senior Fellow, Center for Security and Emerging Technology, Georgetown University, As an Individual
I think putting together lists is very challenging, because we have a very dynamic actor that will take things off the Internet, that is not forthcoming, is not transparent and is very opaque. How can you have collaborations or share if you take your entire academic basic science holdings in Mandarin off-line?
That right there is a first step—
September 25th, 2023 / 4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
I'll have to hold you on that one. Thanks for getting that in.
Now we'll go to Corey Tochor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
I'll let the witness continue. You mentioned a list and you talked about a first step, Ms. Puglisi.
Senior Fellow, Center for Security and Emerging Technology, Georgetown University, As an Individual
Thank you.
I was just going to say that China is not a neutral actor, and that's one of the challenges with lists. Having more of a risk matrix that looks at what the research is and what we know about the entity is a good start.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
That has to be coming from the federal government. Institutions don't have the ability to make that matrix. Would you agree with that?