Science and Research Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 6 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

As you all know, the Board of Internal Economy requires that committees adhere to the health protocols that are in effect until March 11, 2022. As chair, I will enforce these measures, and I thank you all for your co-operation.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 24, 2021.

I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting, and if there are interpretation difficulties, please let me know as soon as possible. You may speak in the official language of your choice. At the bottom of your screen, you may choose to hear floor audio, English or French. The “raise hand” feature is on the main toolbar, should you wish to speak.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your microphone must be muted. The committee clerk and I will maintain a speaking list for all members.

Colleagues, we have two panels tonight. On the first panel, we have Dr. Nipun Vats, assistant deputy minister, science and research sector, Innovation, Science and Economic Development; and from the National Research Council of Canada we have Dr. Danial Wayner, departmental science adviser; and Dr. Shannon Quinn, secretary general.

Colleagues, you will have five minutes to speak. At four and a half minutes, I will hold up a yellow card, and I'll move on to the next speaker at the five-minute mark.

We'll go to Dr. Vats. Welcome.

[Dr. Nipun Vats, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry]

Madam Chair, thank you for the invitation today.

As you mentioned, I'm the assistant deputy minister for the science and research sector at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. It's a pleasure to appear before the committee on this important topic that you are discussing.

I would like to provide a brief overview of the role of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, or ISED, in supporting Canadian science and research, explain how it delivers on this role and then outline some of the key opportunities on the horizon.

The Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry is mandated to guide strategic investments in science and research as well as to support the government's science and technology policy agenda. ISED supports this mandate in a number of ways.

First, we work with the granting councils, NSERC, SSHRC and the Canada Foundation for Innovation, to help ensure that granting council programs align with the government’s policy objectives.

In 2021‑22, they are providing approximately $2.4 billion to support university and college research and training. Funding assists more than 33,000 academic researchers; approximately 40,000 students, post-doctoral fellows and trainees; and thousands of non‑academic collaborators.

Second, ISED provides funding through contribution agreements with third party organizations involved in funding and conducting research and training, and in the promotion of science. These organizations are a key part of Canada’s science and research ecosystem, and range from world-leading basic research institutions such as the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, to Let’s Talk Science, which works with colleges and universities to provide STEM outreach to youth.

Finally, the department plays a convenor role by bringing together different parts of the research ecosystem. This includes engaging with colleges and universities to identify challenges and opportunities; enhancing connections between the research community and downstream commercial opportunities, including through ISED's innovation programming; working with provincial and international S and T partners to identify opportunities to enhance our mutual research, training and downstream economic outcomes; and working with the federal community of science-based departments and agencies on horizontal science and innovation priorities and to connect government and academic science efforts.

Alongside a range of investments the government has made in the last several years to enhance support for science and research, strides have also been made to advance equity, diversity and inclusion. Evidence shows that a more diverse research community is a more creative and innovative one, as it brings a broader range of experience and insights to the table. Actions taken within the ISED portfolio include the dimensions charter, which encourages organizations to take actions to foster a more diverse research environment.

In addition to supporting a strong base of investigator-led research, it is important to ensure that we can capitalize on areas of Canadian opportunity that emerge from our research strengths. As you likely know, thanks to past investments in research, Canada is already at the forefront of some key emerging technologies, such as quantum AI and genomics, and is viewed as a global leader in these areas.

There is an ongoing effort to secure a strong talent base and maintain a globally competitive position in AI through the pan-Canadian AI strategy. The second phase of this strategy, announced in the 2021 budget, focuses on commercialization and adoption, attracting and retaining top academic talent, and enhancing computing capacity and the development of standards that support the implementation of socially responsible AI.

Budget 2021 also announced funding for a national quantum strategy and a pan‑Canadian genomics strategy to support research, talent and commercialization in these areas, to build on our globally competitive positions and create long‑term economic benefits for Canada.

Finally, science will be essential to tackling some of the major horizontal issues facing Canada and the world, such as climate change, sustainable growth and lagging competitiveness. Given this, Canada’s approach to supporting science and research will need to continue to be globally competitive, and a well-connected, agile and interdisciplinary research ecosystem will be all the more important. The work of this committee will be a valuable input into this effort, and I look forward to your deliberations.

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to provide this overview. I would be pleased to answer questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Dr. Vats. We are delighted to have you, and we thank you for your time and effort.

Now we will go to the National Research Council. I'm not sure who is speaking, but it's over to the National Research Council, please.

[Dr. Danial Wayner, Departmental Science Advisor, National Research Council of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to speak to you today about the National Research Council of Canada, as part of your study on success, challenges and opportunities for science in Canada.

We would like to begin by acknowledging that the National Research Council’s facilities are on the traditional unceded territories of many first nations, Inuit and Métis people. We recognize our privilege to be able to conduct research and drive innovation on these lands and pay respect to the peoples who were here before us.

My name is Dr. Dan Wayner. I am the departmental science adviser at the NRC. In this capacity, I'm responsible for encouraging research excellence among the NRC’s 2,250 scientific and technical staff, and for leading dialogue around our scientific direction. During my 37-year career at NRC, I've held a variety of roles: scientist, director general, vice-president of emerging technology and now departmental science adviser.

I'm joined today by my colleague, Dr. Shannon Quinn. Dr. Quinn is the secretary general at the National Research Council of Canada, serving as the lead VP for policy and NRC’s support of government priorities. She has an extensive background in science and technology in both the private and public sectors. Prior to joining the NRC, she served as the VP of science, technology and commercial oversight at Atomic Energy of Canada Limited.

As you know, the NRC is Canada's largest federal research and development organization, with a national footprint that includes laboratories in 22 locations spread across every province in the country. Our scientists, engineers and business experts partner with universities, colleges and Canadian industry to take research and technology from the lab to the marketplace. We serve a unique role in connecting the diverse parts of Canada’s research ecosystem, responding to public policy priorities and creating opportunities that benefit all Canadians.

Over the past five years, we have implemented a plan to revitalize and sustain the NRC’s role at the forefront of research and innovation. This has resulted in the creation of nine collaboration centres with university and other partners in areas such as quantum photonics, ocean technologies, green energy, AI and cybersecurity. In addition, we are pursuing research excellence through support for exploratory research in select disruptive technologies, ensuring a more diverse workforce, revitalizing our NRC research environment and aligning with industrial priorities in key innovation clusters.

As the largest federal science organization, at the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, the NRC quickly pivoted its capabilities to support the Government of Canada’s response to the crisis. The NRC’s pandemic response challenge program was up and running within 18 days of its announcement on March 20, 2020. As of today, we have supported 67 projects.

From the beginning, the NRC worked collaboratively to secure the supply chain for several key components used in molecular diagnostic procedures for COVID-19 testing, reducing Canada’s dependence on other countries for critical testing supplies during the pandemic. About 120 million PPE items have been assessed to make sure they meet the necessary standards as they enter the Canadian marketplace, thanks to the support provided by our NRC testing facilities.

The NRC industrial research assistance program, or NRC IRAP, has invested $81 million to support 14 made-in-Canada vaccine and therapeutic developers. Through NRC IRAP, we supported 2,200 innovative businesses, helping them weather the pandemic and preserve over 26,000 jobs in Canada. We also completed construction of the biologics manufacturing centre in Montreal in June 2021, to provide Canadian vaccine and therapy production capacity.

I'm here to speak to my role in NRC’s recent undertaking of a horizon-scanning initiative to identify key economic and societal challenges of significance for Canada over the next 10 to 15 years. Six broad subject areas were explored: climate change, resource futures, big data and artificial intelligence, cybersecurity and privacy, health care futures and new models of innovation. The next phase, which is currently under way, is intended to show the potential of horizon scanning to identify the capabilities needed to respond to these challenges.

While the NRC has a role in identifying where science is going and where science can help to meet public good objectives, part of what NRC provides is a ready base of skills, knowledge and infrastructure that can be mobilized to address a variety of urgent, emergent and long-term needs of Canada. We are an instrument of government that can deploy dedicated interdisciplinary teams to advance long-term challenges yet remain nimble enough to respond in a crisis.

With that, I'd like to thank you for your time. We're pleased to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Dr. Wayner and Dr. Quinn. We are delighted to have you both.

We thank all our witnesses, and we welcome you. As you know, this is a new committee, and there's real interest among our committee members.

Now we will go to the first round of questioning, for six minutes.

Our first member will be Mr. Tochor.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses tonight.

To start, Dr. Wayner, it sounds like you have been at the NRC for a while. I thank you for your public service in, it sounds like, different roles.

Looking back, though, it's important sometimes to know what we should be looking for into the future. If you went back in time, say, 20 years and could advise the person who had your role 20 years ago, what advice would you give them on what's going to happen at NRC and the challenges we face as a society? What would that advice sound like?

[Dr. Danial Wayner]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for an intriguing question.

You're asking what I would advise the science adviser of the day. As I look back, what I see is that when I was a young researcher, science and technology moved much more slowly than they do today. They are accelerating at a pace that means we must continue to build this bridge between understanding what is happening at the frontiers of science, which is carried out mostly in an academic environment, and the current and emerging needs of Canadian industry. We can and should continue to play that bridge.

If Canada is going to have, for example, a quantum industry, and if the NRC is going to play that role, we must be involved in the science and quantum science at one side, and we must also be able to work collectively and directly with companies that have the potential to adopt and commercialize those products. We do that, not just through our own R and D, but also with the help of our IRAP group, which provides both support for innovation and business advice to Canada's SME communities.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

To paraphrase, it's a bit on the speed of things. In the last 20 years, things have sped up, and as things double in technology, I suspect that's a pattern that's going to continue.

Switching over to Mr. Vats on quantum AI, could you unwrap a little what kind of security concerns you have in the international setting with quantum AI?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

It's certainly the case that AI technologies, and maybe even more so quantum technologies, are sensitive from the perspective of being potentially used in sensitive security areas. What we have been doing within our programs is starting to implement some tools and practices that help to better protect Canadian research.

For example, over the last couple of years, we have been working with the university community and the security agencies to develop guidance to enable researchers to better understand the risks associated with their research being potentially stolen by foreign actors. We have had a fair bit of discussion with university researchers and university administrators about how to better safeguard their research. We put up a whole website called Safeguarding Your Research to better inform them of the risks while being sensitive to the fact that success in areas even like AI and quantum require that we be as open as possible but as secure as necessary, because collaboration is a pretty important part of making advances in those fields.

There have also been policy statements by the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Health, who also has a role with respect to health research, basically asking for government to work with the university community to implement more stringent due diligence processes in federal granting programs that are, in particular, partnership programs between industry and university researchers.

Those have been brought into place with respect to the NSERC alliance program, which is the primary vehicle for national science and engineering collaborations between university researchers and private sector actors. That's also a next step in terms of ensuring that there's an appropriate understanding of who your partners are and what risks they might imply, so that researchers themselves are in control of deciding who they share their research with and that we do more to protect sensitive research from being lost.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I'm going to be running out of time here shortly, so I'll go quickly back to Dr. Wayner about the NRC facility. I represent Saskatoon—University and I'm very proud of the work we do at the NRC facility in our province.

I'd like to know what percentage of the budget was spent the past fiscal year in Saskatchewan. Do you do any calculations on per capita funding for facilities, or is it a needs-based assessment in terms of where that funding would flow within the NRC?

[Dr. Danial Wayner]

I can't give you the direct numbers, but I can ensure, Madam Chair, that we'll provide those numbers to the member and this committee.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Okay, endeavour to have those documents tabled. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Dr. Wayner, and thank you so much, Mr. Tochor.

Those documents will be tabled.

Mr. McKinnon, you have six minutes.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I get quite excited when I hear you all talk about AI, quantum computing and so forth.

I note that the NRC spoke about photonics. My understanding of photonics is that it's really where we segue our technology away from electrons into photons. I suspect there is a lot of crossover with quantum and AI and so forth.

Could both organizations expand on the importance of these areas and what we're doing as a government and as a country, to promote and expand research in these areas?

We could start with Dr. Vats.

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

With respect to AI, photonics doesn't figure quite so prominently with respect to AI research, but there are applications of AI in a whole range of different areas, including developing new materials and new technologies, so I think there is a crosswalk there.

With respect to what the government's doing, it has had for a number of years something called the pan-Canadian AI strategy, which to date has been delivered through CIFAR, the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. The main focus of that has been on making sure that we can attract and retain top talent and train more talent in the field of AI. When it comes to AI technologies, it's really about a talent pipeline that you can produce that can lead to new advances in AI but can also help support industry in terms of adopting these new approaches that could really improve the efficiency of their processes, their ability to create new materials or new products or services.

In the last budget the government renewed that talent play, but also added to it some more focused efforts to try to encourage commercialization of innovations in AI, as well as to help Canadian industry adopt these technologies. The technologies really are making the best use of the data that companies have at hand to optimize what they do and provide greater computing power for the research. It's a very specialized kind of technology, the computing that's needed for AI.

On the quantum side, Canada's been investing fairly strongly in quantum technologies over a number of years. Over the past 10 or 11 years, we've spent upwards of a billion dollars in research funding in various forms for quantum. It's really meant that when you go around the world and you talk to researchers about quantum, they know Canada and they know Canadian researchers. We also have a fairly rich nascent start-up community of Canadian companies in a range of areas that relate to quantum technologies.

Building off of that strength that's been built in the last budget, the government committed to a national quantum strategy for Canada, which focuses on research, commercialization and talent. We've done consultations in that area and are in the process of developing the strategy, which would try to help accelerate what we've already built in Canada so we can stay ahead of the curve internationally.

The NRC might have some things to add on that, if there's enough time. I'm sorry I've taken so much time, but there might be some things that Dan or Shannon may wish to add.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate that.

We do have two minutes, Dr. Wayner and Dr. Quinn, if you'd like to fill that in, and I have more questions if you have time.

[Dr. Danial Wayner]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for that question.

The NRC is in fact a leader in photonics research and development. The Canadian Photonics Fabrication Centre, the CPFC, is actually the world's best pure play fab for the production of photonic devices. We are very grateful for the generous investment of $90 million to revitalize our CPFC, which will allow Canada to continue to be a world leader for the next generation.

In terms of what Dr. Vats said, I can say that there is, of course, an intersection between photonics and optical telecom and those various technologies and emerging areas of quantum. Some forms of quantum technologies will in fact use photons in order to transmit the information. The NRC is well positioned. We're a world leader in an area we'll call silicon photonics, which involves the ability to build photonic devices inside of silicon chips.

I also want to stress the importance of collaboration. Canada really has a world-class ecosystem in photonics and in quantum science. The NRC plays a role in contributing to Canada's leadership, so thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak to this.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, doctors, for your answers. I look forward to the opportunity down the road to drill into these areas more deeply. I think they're fascinating areas of inquiry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Mr. McKinnon.

Again, we're so pleased to have Dr. Vats, Dr. Wayner and Dr. Quinn with us.

We will now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First of all, allow me to welcome all of the witnesses joining us.

My first questions will be directed to Mr. Vats.

Mr. Vats, last week, we welcomed chief science advisor Mona Nemer as a witness.

I asked her a question about a recommendation in the Naylor report to create a national advisory council on research and innovation. The government started recruitment in 2019, but to date, we have no news about what progress has been made in recent years.

Is your department aware of the creation of this national advisory council on research and innovation?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

With regard to the Council on Science and Innovation, as you mentioned, there was a call for potential membership in 2019. I can't speak to the government's intentions with respect to when to move forward with that, although I would observe that the pandemic has obviously been a very big focus for government policy, but it has also drawn on a lot of expert advice. If you look at what's happened over the last couple of years, there's been a lot of focus on the creation of expert committees to inform in areas such as vaccine investments or public health measures. We're seeing that when it comes to drawing on expert scientific advice, there have been a number of ad hoc committees of experts that have been integral to decisions that have been made with respect to government actions on research and public health policy.

I would say, without going too far down the road of speculating, that given the level of activity in terms of expert advice that's been going on with respect to pandemic responses, it may well be that it hasn't been as high a priority to move forward with a broader kind of advisory committee, but it's really—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for those comments, Mr. Vats.

Can you explain the obstacles and the reasons for the delay?

The process was launched nearly three years ago. Can you tell us what has been happening on your end?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

I don't know if I can speak to specifics in terms of delays. The process of selection for these types of committees does take a period of time. There has been a lot of activity, as I mentioned, with respect to drawing on expert advice over the last couple of years, but as regards the timing of appointing such a committee, I'm not really in a position to say.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

That's perfect, Mr. Vats.

The council was therefore never created. There was a recruitment process, but no committee was created.

Is that correct?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

That's right. There are no members appointed to—