Science and Research Committee on Oct. 25th, 2023

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

They were referred to CSIS and CSE.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Yes, that's because we can only use public information, things that are available on the web. You can learn a lot about entities just by looking things up. It's surprising.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

I'm trying to see how broad this risk assessment is. When researchers bring in grad students to work with them, is that part of the risk assessment? What happens if they get the funding and then they hire research assistants or students who may be a risk? Is there some follow-up?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

I think my colleague might want to comment.

[Manal Bahubeshi]

With respect to the national security guidelines for research partnerships, those have been focused on ensuring that the researcher knows the area of research they're in. Where there are sensitive dual-use technologies, etc., that becomes an area of greater consideration—as well as their partners. That has been the focus of the national security guidelines for research partnerships.

With respect to forward-going policies, we await a pronouncement on the scope, specifically, but that's been the focus to date.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

We're getting some great information.

It's over to Mr. Soroka for five minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'll start off with Mr. Adem.

Has NSERC ever been advised by the Canadian security agencies to terminate or reconsider a research grant involving entities of the People's Republic of China? If so, what has the Liberal government done?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We have been advised not to fund certain projects of that kind, but we've not gone retrospectively.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay.

I'll go to Mr. Baron, then.

Has your organization had to terminate or reconsider any health research projects involving PRC entities due to concerns raised by Canadian security agencies? How did the government respond to this?

[Christian Baron]

Thank you for the question.

This has not happened until now. When we looked at the grants CIHR funded.... We fund 10 grants. In the case of these 10 grants, one person affiliated with these grants has an affiliation with an institution in China, but none of these institutions are actually conducting research in a sensitive technology area.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'll go to Mr. Hewitt, then.

How does the Liberal government ensure that your organization-funded research projects involving entities connected to the PRC are in line with Canada's foreign policy objectives, especially considering the sensitive nature of social sciences and humanities research?

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

Clearly, at this point, we are working together to develop the guidelines that will be applied to our areas as they would be applied to any other area.

Right now, the screening is restricted to the alliance program, using the tools that have been developed. That may be expanded with the publication of lists or institutions, and we will follow those.

To our knowledge, I can't tell you that we are funding organizations and entities that would pose a risk to Canada, or at least as have been identified through the peer-review process or subsequently. It's less likely to occur, as I was saying, in the social sciences and humanities, given the very nature of the research, but it's not impossible; I grant you that.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I think, Mr. Adem, you mentioned that the government said they were going to bring out new criteria starting in February. You haven't yet seen what they've brought forward or what kind of recommendations there are. Was that initiated more by government or by your organizations?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We're part of government. We're in the ISED portfolio, so I do want to acknowledge that Minister Champagne has been out front on this issue. He cares a lot about research security.

We're awaiting further instructions to implement these expanded guidelines.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

This is for any of the witnesses, any of the organizations.

Did you identify anything that you really needed to address because you found something glaring that could be a potential security risk to universities?

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

Early on, when I started in this position, we definitely indicated that there were potential issues that we were aware of. We knew there were folks working on that in the government. I was, in fact, quite pleased when the new policy was announced, quite pleased with its development, because I think it's very necessary.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

You haven't seen any of the recommendations coming from that policy yet.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

We're waiting impatiently.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Do you have a time frame? Did the government give you a time frame? We're talking about February; we're almost at a year already.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

What was it they say in Star Trek? It's days and not years.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay, that sounds good.

Did you feel there were any glaring things, possibly, that could be missed and that the government needed to look at? There could be loopholes or something that the PRC could work around to still do research that could help with military operations in their country.

[Dr. Alejandro Adem]

I have mentioned that we will always be tested. Let's not be naive. One of the issues here was that the whole ecosystem was extremely naive. I think our government and the folks who work there are really doing an excellent job of trying to mitigate the risk and to make it foolproof, but it is never perfect.

We talk to our colleagues—we have a very close relationship with NSF in the United States—and try to understand what loopholes they potentially see. It is something that has to be constantly tweaked and improved as we see what the results are.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I think, Mr. Hewitt, you brought that up. You said if a university goes through all the funding criteria and all the security checks and it does get money, there has never been an issue where something was found that could be a security risk so that funding could be pulled.

Please, give a brief comment, or reply later.

[Dr. Ted Hewitt]

It's just funding for very foundational equipment, software and so forth, to maintain security, so it operates at a very basic level to get universities to a place where they can utilize that software or that equipment to screen better. That's as far as we go in that funding.