Science and Research Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

You say that you've been trying to improve things on this front since 2018. It's been five years. Institutions are waiting for this list. In February of this year, you said that it would be coming out soon. We are now in November, Minister, and you've said that it's coming out soon.

Whose ministry is in charge of releasing that list?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

It's a joint effort, sir, as you would appreciate. It's not the minister of industry who is drawing that up. It's a number of federal agencies, intelligence agencies, and not only Canadian ones. This a Five Eyes effort that we're doing with our allied partners to make sure that the list is going to serve as a benchmark not only for Canada but for the Five Eyes countries.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Minister, we need that list.

Minister, right now, we have the fall application of funding passed. There are groups and identities tied to the PRC that your ministry is going to be funding because you have not released this list. How is this acceptable?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would disagree with you because we provided the guidelines. What we're looking at now is a very specific list.

Sir, if I may, again—

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Answer one last question. Is it hard to make lists?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say that it's not hard to make a list, but it's hard to make the right list when you talk about national security and making sure that it's the right list.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to pass my time to my colleague, Rick Perkins.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

We've gone through that a couple of times now.

Mr. Perkins, you have two minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, if I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the government started to take this issue seriously around 2018. Is that correct? Just give me a yes or no.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Certainly. We came into office in 2015, and I would say that, when I look at the list of actions that have been taken—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm not looking for the list. I'm just looking.... You said 2018 in your testimony.

Are you aware that, in 2015, the National University of Defense Technology, which is the research and development arm of the Chinese government for the Chinese military, was banned and blacklisted in the United States by Barack Obama?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If you say so, Mr. Perkins. I always say—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Obviously, you're not aware of that.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

What you're saying as—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I guess you haven't been paying that much attention to it if you're not aware that almost nine years ago—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Sir, with respect—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No, let me—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—the previous Conservative government did nothing, sir. I won't take any lessons from you on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I will interject as the chair.

Let's try not to talk over the person answering, and let's try not to talk over the person questioning. Please give each other some respect and some time to answer your questions and to ask questions.

Thank you.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Your answer indicated that you weren't aware, or you would have said yes. Over the past five years, the National University of Defense Technology—you said since 2018 you've been paying attention—has done 240 joint papers and research projects with Canadian universities.

It doesn't sound like your government was taking it very seriously.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I don't know what the question is, in a sense, sir. We've been the ones who have been here. The previous Conservative government did nothing, so I'll take no lessons.

What I can say to you is that our government is the government that has put the security guidelines in place. Don't take it from me, Mr. Perkins. Take it from the experts. The experts will tell you. They came to see me and thanked me for what I've been doing in putting security front and centre.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Can you table a list of those experts who have complimented you? Thank you. I'd appreciate that.

Also, can you tell me if you have actually banned, as President Barack Obama did in 2015 in the United States, the National University of Defense Technology from doing research in Canada?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say we've done more than that. We have issued guidelines that would cover—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's a yes-or-no question.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No, but sir, that's an answer. We've done more than that.