Science and Research Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dear colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

As you all know, the Board of Internal Economy requires that committees adhere to health protocols, which are in effect until March 11, 2022. As chair, I will enforce these measures and, as always, I thank you all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the order of November 24, 2021. I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You may speak in the official language of your choice. At the bottom of your screen you may choose to hear the floor audio, English or French. The “raise hand” feature is on the main toolbar should you wish to speak. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be muted.

The committee clerk and I will maintain a speaking list for all members.

Dear colleagues, we have two panels tonight. We're delighted to welcome our witnesses for the first panel.

From Niagara College, we have Dr. Marc Nantel, vice-president, research and external relations. Welcome, Dr. Nantel. From the Université du Québec en Outaouais, we have Dr. Adel El Zaïm, vice-president, research, creation, partnership and internationalization. From the University of Saskatchewan, we have Dr. Baljit Singh, vice-president, research.

We welcome you all. We're grateful for your time.

We'll have statements from each witness for five minutes. I will hold up a yellow card when you have 30 seconds left.

We'll begin with Dr. Nantel for five minutes.

Welcome. The floor is yours.

[Dr. Marc Nantel, Vice-President, Research and External Relations, Niagara College]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for allowing me the opportunity to speak today and for the committee's service to the Canadian people. It's nice to see some of you again, including you, Madam Chair.

My name is Marc Nantel. As said, I'm the VP of research and external relations at Niagara College. I'm also the chair of the national research and advisory council of Colleges and Institutes Canada. I have experience in research at both university and college levels.

I got a Ph.D. in plasma physics in 1994. I then went to France and then to the University of Michigan, where I worked with Gérard Mourou, who was fortunate enough to have the Nobel Prize given to him with our friend Donna Strickland a couple of years ago. I then spent 10 years from 1998 to 2008 at the University of Toronto as an adjunct professor. I have been at the college since 2011.

I would like to talk quickly about some of the success I see from the funding program point of view. When I got my Ph.D. in 1994, research funding in Canada was at a low ebb, so I had to go away. However, when I saw in 1997 that the Government of Canada had created a Canada Foundation for Innovation, the CFI, and then the Canada research chairs, I knew it was time to come back, because Canada was getting serious again about research.

When I came back from Michigan, my first grant I received was from the CFI for the establishment of the University of Toronto's laser micromachining facility. The equipment is still in use today. I'm quite happy with that.

I consider these two programs to be great successes, the CFI and the CRC. They brought back Canadian scientists to Canada and recruited international stars. I think they are doing what they are supposed to do.

Another program that is dear to me is NSERC's college and community innovation program. Niagara College is one of the six colleges across Canada to help NSERC conduct this pilot for the program in 2006-09. The success of the pilot led to the continuing CCI program funding that NSERC runs for the tri-council. The annual budget is $85 million a year. This amount represents only about 2%-and-change of the total tri-council support for post-secondary research with the rest, 97%-plus, going to universities. Nonetheless, I consider this program to be a resounding success. Through NSERC's CCI program, the power of community colleges to contribute to research was unleashed, albeit only partially. We would need several times the current budget to fully realize it.

A challenge we hear a lot from the press these days, and for a while, has been that Canada does well at basic research and publishing results, but not so well at reaping the benefits of our intellectual property for Canadians. I don't purport to have solutions for how universities are going to tackle that, but let me tell you how colleges try to contribute.

College research complementary to universities is often about the application of knowledge to solve more immediate problems and about the companies, mostly SMEs, small and medium enterprises, that approach us for help. It's about developing new products, processes and services for them. It's about transferring these solutions and new commercializable results directly to industry, and it's about giving college students a richer education through these applied research projects so that they can be a better workforce.

Our timelines for these projects are, therefore, shorter. They're a few months to a year, as is the timeline for commercialization, because the IP is generally given straight up to the industry partner who can get on right away with commercializing it. It's more of a market pull situation than technology push.

The colleges are trying to help. All of the government and big science eventually needs to hit the ground. Often, at that point, colleges are involved in taking the concepts and prototypes that you make and bringing them to life with the companies that are going to put them on the market. Big science needs applied research to be successful in reaching its commercialization end goals.

College campuses are situated within 50 kilometres of 95% of the Canadian population and 86% of the indigenous population of Canada. We have 140 colleges across Canada, including more than 750 labs and research centres. In 2019 and 2020, they worked on more than 6,400 applied research projects, yielding more than 5,500 prototypes, processes, products and services, and 85% of these were realized within one year. Along the way, 42,000 students worked on the projects and got an enhanced education that allowed them to be innovative for the employer that will hire them.

Colleges work with SMEs, and the results and commercialization of the research leads these companies to be competitive on the market domestically and internationally, and to create jobs in all sectors of the economy. Because most of the companies with which we work are small and medium-sized enterprises and not multi-national corporations, the results directly benefit Canada.

At Niagara College, we focus, for example, our applied research on advanced manufacturing, agriculture and the environment, food and beverage and business and commercialization research. Other sectors covered by other colleges include ICT, health, energy and anything you'd like.

That's why I'd like to end my introductory remarks by asking that the committee consider the place that college-applied research could play in the overall research landscape in Canada and in the economic development, job creation and wealth generation that it can bring.

We can contribute so much more with better than 2% of the federal dollars going to all post-secondary research—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Nantel, I'm sorry to interrupt. I know people will be really interested in what you have to say and will want to follow up. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

I didn't see your sign, Madam Chair, because I was reading my text. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much. I know people are really looking forward to talking with you.

We will now go to Dr. Adel El Zaïm. It will be for five minutes.

We look forward to hearing from you.

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm, Vice-President, Research, Creation, Partnership and Internationalisation, Université du Québec en Outaouais]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to begin by thanking you for inviting me to testify before your committee and wishing you great success in your mandate. On behalf of the Université du Québec en Outaouais, I assure you of our full cooperation for the future of science and research in Canada.

We already know that Canada has many successes in science and high-quality research, which is worth celebrating. My comments today will focus more on the challenges and opportunities in science and research.

The Université du Québec en Outaouais is a young university with some 6,000 students across its three locations: in Gatineau, Ripon and Saint-Jérôme. We are a university with a regional mission and very internationally diverse staff and student body. Our researchers often tackle real and multicultural challenges that require a multidisciplinary approach, including in natural sciences, the environment, forest sciences, education, computing, engineering and social sciences.

The COVID‑19 pandemic has been and still is a tremendous challenge for all of our systems, both in Canada and abroad. It has also provided an opportunity for transformation, as we have been forced to become more agile, more flexible and more quick to meet needs.

Canada's research councils and the Fonds de recherche du Québec, a Quebec research fund, have implemented agile funding to find solutions quickly. Researchers from around the world have been working together and have developed solutions faster than before based on knowledge they have acquired, such as the vaccine and experimental treatments, which are currently of interest to us.

We have also seen innovation in other fields, such as transportation logistics, distance education, telemedicine, the development of technological solutions for service delivery, but also cybersecurity, an area of excellence at the Université du Québec en Outaouais.

Canada will now have to learn from the crisis by identifying the needs and deficiencies exposed by the crisis before addressing them. So we will have to go from a reactive approach to a proactive approach if we want to forecast the future better and, more importantly, innovate more.

Major global challenges, such as the climate change crisis, will increasingly require ongoing intersectoral, interprovincial and international partnerships. Therefore, we will have to foster collaborations with countries that share our values of democracy and openness to the world.

International partnerships increase our research capacity. Therefore, strengthening research, institutions and the system for managing research and its outcomes in Canada is becoming a fundamental and vital issue for the sustainability of Canadian success and its benefits for the country and for the world.

In addition to developing fundamental knowledge, research in the 21st century must reflect complex issues and, more so than ever, it will have to be multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary. Some programs from Canada's research councils foster that approach. We will have to develop more of them and train more researchers on multidisciplinary approaches. So we will also have to recognize this type of training and expertise and researchers' background in order to develop young scientists's full potential.

It is no exaggeration to say that one of the dangers to democratic society nowadays resides in the lack of science culture and research culture. Our education systems hope to develop critical thinking in our young people. However, many of them can't distinguish between a personal opinion, the public opinion and a proven scientific fact. So young people must be introduced to research culture when they start school and given support, with general culture, throughout their development, whether they are headed to university or not.

Our universities' research offices are working hard to meet funder requirements. However, even large universities are suffering in having to manage all those requirements. So Canada could simplify procedures, thereby giving small universities more means.

As far as perspectives go, Canada has a lot of friends around the world. We export knowledge and know-how. We can also import more of it and thereby ensure a more sustainable development of science and research skills in Canada.

The pandemic has shown us the benefits, but also the limitations, of a globally interconnected society. We will now need more investment in leading sectors to position us as a global leader and to ensure scientific innovation and social innovation through research.

Finally, allow me to reiterate the following ideas. Science culture must be developed in young people—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. El Zaïm, but your time is up.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I know that our colleagues eagerly await to talk to you.

Now we will go to Dr. Singh for five minutes.

Thank you, all, so much.

[Dr. Baljit Singh, Vice-President, Research, University of Saskatchewan]

Good evening, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for this privilege to be in front of the Standing Committee on Science and Research.

My name is Baljit Singh. I am vice-president of research and professor of veterinary medicine at the University of Saskatchewan, which is located on Treaty 6 territory and the homeland of the Métis people.

This university is a proud member of the U15 group of Canadian research-intensive medical doctoral universities and enrolls more than 20,000 students, including 4,000 graduate students from 130 countries. We are proud to say that 15% of the student body—about 3,500 students—are self-declared indigenous students. That percentage is equal to the percentage of indigenous peoples in the province of Saskatchewan.

The Canadian government has proudly made significant investment over decades in basic and applied research that has lead to the current levels of prosperity that we enjoy every day.

Today, Madam Chair, I would like to make four specific points for consideration by this committee. I hope some of those are fresh points and some will support what has already been presented to the committee.

Number one is research facilities. Canada has done a commendable job in investing to create unique and world-class research facilities in this country. There are 17 national research facilities, and we are proud to have three of those at the University of Saskatchewan. Because we operate those, we also have experience in the challenges of finding funding to operate those facilities in an adequate and optimal manner; therefore, I would request the committee to consider a national conversation to create an alternative funding model for large, national research science facilities that considers the full life cycle of the facility from the first brick to the finish of the facility.

The second point, Madam Chair, I would like to make is about work with indigenous communities. As part of our national work, universities have developed significantly better ways of working in a respectful manner with indigenous communities and their leaders to undertake research in partnership with the communities into challenges that are directly confronted by our indigenous peoples.

The road is long; there are still challenges, but I also see that there are massive opportunities in front of us if we can do the work right. I would request the committee to consider creating a better funding model that galvanizes the partnerships between universities and indigenous communities to create a better and prosperous way of life for our indigenous peoples in Canada.

The third one, Madam Chair, I would make is about One Health. Over the last couple of years, we have seen what a fast-moving and complex threat such as COVID-19 can do to expose the gaps in our knowledge and abilities of public policies to tackle that problem. What emerges are the intersections of the animal health, human health and environmental health. We don't have to react in a similar way to future challenges.

There is a better way, and it's called One Health. One Health examines deeper connections between animal health and human health, and it leads to the creation of a better public policy framework. The University of Saskatchewan is engaged with other universities and some federal departments in advancing the concept of One Health to protect the health of Canadians, their animals and their environment when a future outbreak takes place in this country.

I would recommend leadership from the federal government to allow us to coalesce the existing abilities in the area of One Health to create a legacy program for Canadians to protect their health.

The last point, Madam Chair, I would make is about better funding in the areas of social sciences, humanities and the arts. I think the COVID-19 pandemic has shown the epidemic of mental health in our country. Also, we don't have a better way of building cohesive, resilient and multicultural communities in our country. A better investment into social sciences and humanities will allow us to do that and also give us a better way of expressing ourselves culturally, and different ways of artistic expression will allow us to create wellness in our country.

With these comments, Madam Chair, I, again, am very grateful for the opportunity to be in front of this committee. Thank you so very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Dr. Singh, for your comments.

Again, I welcome all three witnesses. You have a committee that's really interested in the work you're presenting and is eager to learn more, so we thank you.

With that, we will now go to our first round of questions. This is a six-minute round, beginning with Mr. Baldinelli.

It's over to you.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for being here this evening and for their insightful presentations.

I'll begin with my questions to Mr. Nantel from Niagara College.

In a previous session of one of our hearings, one of our witnesses, Mr. Kenyon from Brock University, during his presentation talked about the power of smaller research institutions. He talked about how smaller institutions can play a larger role in the cultural and economic activity of their communities. I really felt that sentence and that line defined perfectly what Niagara College is doing and has been doing for the past several years.

You mentioned in your presentation the notion of applied research and working with industries, and working in terms of months, not several years, on several of the projects in your innovation centres, be it the Walker Advanced Manufacturing Innovation Centre, the Canadian Food and Wine Institute and the innovation centre there, or the Agriculture and Environmental Technologies Innovation Centre.

Could you give us some examples of the projects, applied research projects, that have made a real difference to Canadian companies, primarily those in our local communities?

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

Thank you very much. Through the chair, Mr. Baldinelli, yes, I can give you examples from each of our innovation centres.

From the Walker Advanced Manufacturing Innovation Centre, we are leading a nine-institution network called the Southern Ontario Network for Advanced Manufacturing Innovation. It's funded through FedDev Ontario, the regional development agency for southern Ontario. It is tackling a whole bunch of problems. It can go from auto safety to better ways of drilling holes. It runs the gamut. It has McMaster University involved and seven colleges, including Niagara College.

One way of relating this to the committee's question today is that when COVID struck in March 2020, we the members of SONAMI went to our funders and said, “Hey, could we pivot our funding to look at COVID-19-related projects?” FedDev was very gracious in saying, “Yes, please do; we need the help. There's a problem with PPE, personal protective equipment; there's a problem with fluids for cleaning. Any old problem that you could help with would be great.”

For the first six or eight months of the pandemic, we conducted 32 projects that are COVID-related. They were manufacturing and designing face shields. They were using our distilleries to make cleaning fluid. They were designing and building better laryngoscopes in order to intubate people more safely. There were apps for phones to facilitate physical distancing during delivery. All the companies with which we worked were able to step up into the breach during the early part of SONAMI. That's one way in which we help, in a very local way but that can have far-reaching implications.

We worked with manufacturing companies. We doubled the production of a machine shop in Niagara that used to do mostly car parts but is now pivoting to do horticultural products, handling machinery. Your little alfalfa sprout that you grow has to be processed, cut, cleaned, dried and bagged, and this company now produces machinery that does this. It sells worldwide. Within a few months of having finished their SONAMI project with us, they were doubling their machining space and doubling their staff, and they were selling millions of dollars' worth around the world. That's one example.

In another example, we've helped companies make new beverages. There's a company called DistillX that makes zero per cent alcohol gin, and we designed the product with them. We're currently working on a tequila with them, too. Now their product is on the market, and in December, if you were watching Dragon's Den, you would have seen them on that show pitching their “zero gin” product. They got offers from each and every dragon, so they are currently commercializing this product with the help of investors and being very successful and are still working with us on their second product.

Those are two or three examples. I can give more, but I don't want to take the whole time.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

If you'd like to share some more details, I'm sure the committee would take those in a written format.

I'd like to put a question to all the witnesses. Again, thank you for being here.

Over previous meetings we've heard from a number of witnesses about the importance of the ecosystem—the foundation—and how it's critical to science and research innovation. We've also heard about the needs for greater harmonization, collaboration and coordination. We've heard from one witness as well about the notion of almost a one-stop shop to try to make it easier for the institutions.

From your perspective, what can the federal government do to reduce the challenges and some of the barriers that you may be facing not only as a college, but as a university, in trying to secure those grants and to support that critical work you're doing?

Mr. Nantel, I'll start with you and then we'll go to the other witnesses real quick.

[Dr. Marc Nantel]

Through the chair, thank you so much for the opportunity, MP Baldinelli.

As a college, it's actually not that easy to secure the funding to keep us going. That's not because of the two per cent number that I mentioned in my address, but because faculty at a college is not hired to do research. They are hired to teach and do a bit of admin, unlike a university professor who has research as his or her function along with teaching and admin.

It falls to the office of research to lead the way. We write the proposals, make the connection with industry and respond to industry. These offices are not particularly well supported.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Dr. Nantel and Mr. Baldinelli, I'm sorry to interrupt. It was so interesting to hear about the work that was being done.

I apologize.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

No, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm afraid we're going to have to go on.

Monsieur Lauzon, we'll go to you for six minutes, please.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I thank Mr. Nantel, Mr. Singh and Mr. El Zaïm for joining us today. We are happy to have them.

I assume that Mr. Nantel is also a francophone, based on his name.

I would like to give Mr. El Zaïm an opportunity to talk to us about the recommendations he did not have time to cover.

Mr. El Zaïm, could you tell us about your recommendations?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Thank you very much.

I thank the committee members for giving me this opportunity to present my recommendations.

The first recommendation concerns the importance for Canada, as a global leader, to develop people's appreciation for science culture from an early age. This is not just a matter of science or education, it is also a matter of society. So an appreciation for science culture and science research must be nurtured.

The second recommendation is about the fact that we cannot resolve this alone and that we need domestic and international partnerships. Those are sometimes risky, but we need them.

The third recommendation is about the importance of helping researchers do their job and of simplifying the process to foster the emergence of new talent without drowning them in procedures. This recommendation may also answer Mr. Baldinelli's question on ways to facilitate the work. The quantity of processes, procedures and documents is tremendous, and that requires a lot of work.

We have actually seen the limitations of the interconnected world we are living in. We need a Canada that is aware of its limitations, but that assumes a leadership role in science, research and innovation.

For instance, certain countries are investing in semiconductor production. That is an area where innovation possibilities are still numerous. Canada can play a very important role in innovations related to, for example, computer tools and semiconductors thanks to photonics and quantum computing.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

We heard from the executive director of the U15 Group, Gilles G. Patry, whom you are familiar with. He told us that many Canadian students were ending their education once they earn their bachelor's degree and were not earning graduate or postgraduate degrees.

You alerted us to that.

How does the Université du Québec encourage young students to stay in school and to become researchers?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

This is an essential question.

The continuity of science and research must indeed rest on new talents, from Canada, from here. When I say “here”, that includes people from all over who come live here.

It must be ensured, from the outset, that an appreciation for a university education is developed in young people. The Université du Québec en Outaouais plays that role through its mission and its foundation.

We work a lot with CEGEPs, colleges and schools to give young people an appreciation for not only earning a bachelor's degree, but also a master's degree and a Ph.D. We go to young people and explain to them the importance of doing that.

As we are present in a number of regions in Quebec, we are a really nice example of the collaboration that can be maintained.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

You do have a pretty significant pool in the national capital and in the Laurentians, more specifically in Saint‑Jérôme, north of Montreal. There is also an institution attached to the Université du Québec in Ripon. That establishment is in the heart of my riding. I myself attended the Université du Québec.

You have partnerships. However, does diversity enable you to attract a clientele from abroad?

If so, what percentage does that clientele account for?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

The Université du Québec en Outaouais is the network's youngest university. It currently has about 6,000 students, most of whom are studying in Gatineau and in Saint‑Jérôme. The Institut des sciences de la forêt tempérée, an institute for temperate forest science, in Ripon, is more for students earning a master's degree or a Ph.D. A lot of forest research is done there.

There are about 500 international students, but our students come from all over. For example, people from Montreal come study at the Saint‑Jérôme campus. Diversity is very important.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

You raised an important point, the fact that university institutions provide training in agriculture or training related to rural life.

Does your university have connections with rural regions to carry out research activities there?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Of course, we do have connections.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Can you give me an example of a research project you have carried out in a rural environment?

I will ask you to answer the question in 15 seconds, if possible.