Science and Research Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Hopefully, you will get to address the rest of your testimony during our questions.

Thank you for your opening remarks.

Now I'll open the floor for questions. Please be sure to indicate to whom your questions are directed.

Our first questioner is MP Viersen, please, for six minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I noticed you were sitting here for the last panel as well. I didn't get to my next question, but we were talking about the energy that's bound up in plastic and whether that energy can be used to then recycle plastic. Can you address that a bit from your perspective?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute, Canada Research Chair in Resource Recovery and Bioproducts Engineering, and Associate Professor at Université Laval, Réseau Environnement]

The question is about the energy in the plastic and chemical recycling, for instance.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes.

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

If you do a pyrolysis, you would use energy to....

Is that the question?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes. I'm just wondering if there is enough energy in plastic to be used to then recycle other plastic. Is it a net positive?

It seems that plastic is a high-energy product, but then it takes a lot of energy to recycle it, particularly to break it down into its basic elements again. Is it a net positive? Can we use plastic to make plastic?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

If you do mechanical recycling, for instance, you would not break down the molecular structure of the plastic. You would recycle the molecular structure as such, which would consume less energy, so yes, you can recycle it many times again.

If you do chemical recycling, it's more energy-intensive. You would basically break down the molecular structure to monomers. Those monomers can be reused. The advantage of that is that the purity of the plastic you recycle will be higher, but it's more energy-intensive in that sense.

Still, any recycling type would be much more interesting than, for example, incinerating or disposing of the waste in landfills.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Do you have any idea what the impact of the carbon tax would be on recycling plastic? If it's an energy-intensive thing, the carbon tax is then an added cost. Is that causing an impact at all on recycling in Canada?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

Chemical recycling would for sure be more intensive. There would be more greenhouse gas emissions from that than from mechanical recycling.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

I'll share the rest of my time with Mr. Tochor.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you to our witnesses. I applaud your work. I appreciate anyone who wants to make our environment cleaner and better for future generations. I'm probably taking a different approach from yours on plastics and the importance of becoming that superpower of recycling plastics. We're probably going to agree on some things and disagree on others.

Madam Chair, we're going to get back to this testimony in a minute. We're going to have a quick vote on a motion and then we'll come back.

A lot of the testimony we've already heard is that in Canada, there are mismanaged files and a broken system. We even heard earlier today that it's in crisis. This is mostly at the feet of the Liberal government, but specifically the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.

With that, I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i), the committee invite the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry to appear before the committee for no less than two hours, within 14 days of the adoption of this motion, in relation to his priorities for the return of Parliament and his mandate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Ms. Diab, I'll put you first on the speakers list to speak on the motion.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I move to adjourn the debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That means we go right to a vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Now we will return to our witnesses.

You are the next speaker, Ms. Diab.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Actually, I would like to get back to the reason that the witnesses are here today.

First, thank you very much for appearing and thank you for appearing in person.

Thank you for providing this. I actually had it in English; thank you for providing it in French.

I want to thank the three of you for all your hard work.

I understand very well that the environment and human health are at stake here.

With regard to the Réseau Environnement representatives, I know that you didn't have time to finish your remarks. I would like to invite you to do so.

I think that the rest of your recommendations are likely in our documents. However, I would like to hear them so that the analysts can do their job.

[Mathieu Laneuville]

We had two items left. In general, we would like to see more research, development and innovation. For example, as you said, we want more research into the impact of plastics—including nanoplastics and microplastics—on the environment and human health. These items are among our members' recommendations. With regard to municipal waste water treatment in Canada, we also want to further limit nanoparticles, plastics and other contaminants—such as textiles that come off in the laundry—so that they don't end up in our waterways.

We have other recommendations for green taxation. One approach is strongly recommended by our members—I know we were talking about other countries earlier—and it's Norway's approach. Norway stands out for its approach to increasing the recycling rate of plastic products put on the market. For a number of years now, it has been implementing an excise tax on plastic packaging and containers. Producers can receive an exemption from this tax if they show that their products are well supplied and over 85% recycled. This tax can be regressive depending on the results achieved. However, the recycling certificate is issued by the designated management organizations, or DMOs. These organizations already have access to the results of extended producer responsibility, or EPR. This system reverses the dynamic, since the producers seek to comply with recycling streams to obtain their certificate. This approach encourages standard packaging and containers and promotes green design. As it happens, our greatest wish is to see green design flourish.

In terms of other green taxation measures, many Canadian municipalities have incentive pricing for waste. This measure is a common practice in Europe. For example, when people, industries, businesses and institutions deposit their waste, they pay according to the user pays or polluter pays principle. This encourages people to do much more recycling and composting. In Montreal, the municipality of Beaconsfield, for example, is taking this approach. We're seeing convincing results, with nearly 30% less waste going to the landfill. These science‑based practices are working well.

Lastly, with regard to green design, we said that we needed to determine the science involved in finding the best packaging for each product category. Our members recommend, for instance, that we maintain an up‑to‑date road map with clear green design protocols to support our suppliers and companies. As we all know, changing production equipment requires considerable financial investment, expertise and labour. With that, we can keep track of design costs and achieve sustainable results that benefit the economy, the environment and human health. For example, we could have more and more single‑layer plastics instead of the multi‑layer plastics that often come from other places. We could have more glass. I know that we were talking earlier about recycling plastic. However, glass can often be recycled up to 80%, unlike plastic, which is limited to around 30%. Furthermore, we know that the plastic particles in long‑stored ketchup or mayonnaise containers break down after a while and end up in nature and in our bodies. The best approach would be to produce the appropriate container or packaging for each good, and to do so on a scientific basis, backed by a life‑cycle analysis.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you for sharing all these recommendations. I hope that the analysts have taken note of them.

Mr. Merante, I come from Halifax, in the province of Nova Scotia. On our licence plates, it literally says, “Canada's Ocean Playground”. We have over 13,000 kilometres of seacoast because we front the Atlantic Ocean.

When you talked about the national pollution crisis and the effect on our environment, our oceans and, of course, our bodies, we need to take that seriously. I just want to give you an opportunity to tell us what we are doing right, so that we can actually.... Obviously, there are a lot of things that we need to do, but from your perspective, are there any other recommendations?

[Anthony Merante]

Sure. I think the government started to take action on fighting plastic pollution with the listing of plastic manufactured items under CEPA. Let's not forget that CEPA is not only for the proactive protection of the environment; it is also for human health, and having that foundation, in my opinion, is correct.

Because of the vast pervasiveness of microplastics, you cannot tell where that plastic came from. You do not know if it was from a tire or from a car. My mom's side of the family is from Halifax. I've seen many a grocery cart thrown into the ocean. Many people cannot imagine what ends up in the water. It affects ecotourism. It affects your quality of life.

Now, on what we could do better, things like the plastic ban targeted products, and we saw many players in the industry take that in good faith. They switched to reusable products and to more sustainable products, but many tried to find a loophole in there. We need a reiteration of the ban that is sectoral and that works hand in hand with the largest players in that sector. I'll give you the example of the beverage sector. Rather than potentially banning items with pop, juice, yada yada yada, you could work hand in hand with the three largest players—Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Keurig Dr Pepper—and collectively have them reduce the overall amount of plastic they have.

A sectoral approach would be my recommendation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you. That's our time.

Thank you, MP Diab.

Now we will turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to acknowledge the witnesses here for the second hour of this meeting.

Mr. Laneuville, in your interviews, you used the phrase “social acceptability of projects”. In your view, the green economy has a positive impact on human well‑being. Can you elaborate on these benefits?

[Mathieu Laneuville]

Are you talking about the benefits of the green economy?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yes.

[Mathieu Laneuville]

First, at Réseau Environnement, we believe that the green economy is profitable. It's good for our own economy to use recycled plastics rather than raw materials. We currently use mostly virgin resins from China and India. They go around the world and we process them, rather than recovering our own material. For this reason, we think that the Canadian government must set an example with its own furniture, for example, and must innovate and become a world leader in the green economy.

The world leaders will be the ones capable of collecting, recovering and producing as little plastic as possible. This is a global issue. We want Canada to lead the way and become a model for the green economy. This need will exist all around the world. If regulations aren't created here, they'll be created in other places. The market is headed in this direction anyway, so why not stay competitive?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for your response. You're talking about examples. However, I want to get down to the specifics.

You spoke about green taxation. The Bloc Québécois has already promoted green finance on a number of occasions. It's simple. It's about giving companies incentives to stop investing in oil and gas. We all know that money is key. When we look at the money, we see that the big Canadian banks have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in oil and gas in recent years.

This isn't about reinventing the wheel. I'll use the example of Norway. In 2019, it had already announced its plans to permanently move away from fossil fuels through its sovereign wealth fund. Studies also found that, if this fund had disposed of its fossil fuel assets a number of years earlier, it would not only have contributed significantly to achieving the goals of the Paris agreement, it would also have been cost‑effective.

I want you to elaborate on the green economy, but especially on green taxation and the potential benefits if the federal government really decides to take the plunge.

[Mathieu Laneuville]

A good example of green taxation in Canada is the carbon tax, which we can take great pride in. Our members believe that it's one of the best ways to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, achieve our net zero goals and encourage innovation. The idea is to encourage great consultants, great Quebec and Canadian companies and all the provinces to innovate. This can be done, but it takes a financial incentive. Otherwise, people will keep going back to raw materials and things that may not be as environmentally friendly.

Green taxation rewards the innovators who will drive the future economy, and discourages the stragglers who stick with old practices. Our members also appreciate the fact that green taxation establishes the results, but lets Canadian organizations and companies innovate in their own way. This plays a key role in green taxation.