Science and Research Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you so much for your testimony today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you. That's right on time again.

Our second questioner will be MP Chen for six minutes.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

I know we're all aware of Canada's role on the international stage. This past spring, we hosted the fourth session of the Intergovernmental Negotiating Committee on Plastic Pollution, announcing over $3.3 million in funding that would go to support Canadian organizations innovating in the fight against plastic pollution. Of course, recycling is an important part of the solution.

Mr. Arjmand, you highlighted the fact that only 9% of the four million tonnes of plastic waste generated in Canada each year is recycled. You began to speak about value addition in the recycling process, and how that would go a long way in supporting the circular economy. You ran out of time, so I'd like to hear from you.

Could you finish your testimony?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

Thank you so much.

For the plastic being collected and sorted out very well, there are three general techniques being used by different countries right now.

One of the easiest ones is mechanical recycling. We can have it in any small city across Canada. It can generate fills and jobs. We can simply convert some of the plastic waste being generated in each city to some value-added product. Sometimes we can improve the physical properties of plastics. You can imagine that plastic waste, such as drinking-water bottles, could be easily converted to an electrical conducting material that can, for instance, absorb electromagnetic waves. That's how we go from low-value products to value-added products.

The second approach.... When mechanical recycling—which is the easiest one—is not possible, countries have started to move towards chemical recycling. The capital investment in infrastructure is higher, but the materials we can get from chemical recycling are value-added products. We can generate some chemicals from the plastic waste that can find their market.

If the previous two are not possible, there is a third one. Some of the plastics are challenging, so some European countries have started to work on energy recovery. We know most of the plastic waste is being made from petroleum-based material. It has a high number of calories, so it has a lot of energy. Some countries have started to burn this material to generate energy, and from that energy they generate electricity or power. The challenge is that we might generate some toxic gases. We need to have very good filtration systems, so high technology is required over there. Some countries, such as Germany, are front-runners in this area.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you. That's quite fascinating.

You mentioned earlier that some countries, including Finland, are using robotic systems. There has been an increase in AI and robotics.

Could you speak about some of the opportunities that might exist in this space?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

Sure.

I have been working with a couple of companies in British Columbia. The major challenge is that, when we are working at a larger scale, human beings don't work anymore. We need to have the separation of plastic done very well. Right now, using artificial intelligence has become important. Some advanced technologies in this area are using robotic systems that can detect the plastics at a larger scale and separate them. Then these plastics are ready to be sent to the next stage.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

That's fantastic.

I know you are the Canada research chair in advanced materials and polymer engineering, and that part of your research looks at the different industries that can use recycled plastics. Certainly, this would help fulfill the circular economy that we've been talking about today, namely, industries such as housing, the auto sector and aerospace.

Could you speak to some of the opportunities that exist in these industries, and how those sectors can collaborate with the broader community in furthering this goal of reducing plastics and recycling?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

Sure. We should be very careful that the recycled plastics.... The industry right now is hesitant to use them for food industrial packaging, because of the presence of contaminants, but other industries, such as aerospace, defence, construction or appliances can use these plastics.

The whole idea is that if we receive these recycled plastics, we need to find a way to, first, process them, and, second, improve some of the properties, such as electrical, mechanical or thermal, in order to make them adjusted for those target industries. That's what we need to consider.

One important point that I would like to highlight here is that whenever we recycle plastics, the properties start to decline. They are not as compatible as virgin plastics. That is one of the reasons the industry is so hesitant. In terms of price, virgin plastics are much more competitive compared to recycled plastics. That's one of the biggest challenges in the industry right now.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

I'll turn to Mr. Langdon, on video conference, if I can.

I know that you also have talked about the circular economy and have organized industry representatives. As Mr. Arjmand mentioned, it is a challenge to utilize recycled plastics in the food industry because of the concerns around safety. I know you have done some work in this area. Could you speak to your work?

[Allen Langdon]

We've struck a material access group, which is a group of producers who are interested in working with us over, I would say, the coming months to develop a real and realistic plan on how they could access plastic material, actually all material, directly for our system.

We're going to be establishing a system that's going to be managing probably upwards of 1.5 million tonnes of material across the country. We're intent on ensuring that the producers who are paying for the recycling of this material will be able to access that material and have it come back directly to them in the form of recycled content.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's a little bit over our time. You might get a chance to finish that thought with another witness. Thank you.

We will now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas, for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses who are with us for this study.

Mr. Mathieu-Poulin, I commend you on all of your organization's work. As a Quebecker, I am always proud to see a Quebec company that is thriving and is at the forefront in various fields, specifically the environment. It is encouraging to see the work you are doing, and it is also evident that positive things are happening. It's clear that what Quebec is doing in various areas, whether Hydro Quebec, day care or pharmacare, serves as inspiration to other parts of the country. So congratulations on your efforts to protect the environment.

Since you are with us today, I would like you to talk to us about the environment. We know that Quebec has always been a pioneer on the environment and environmental responsibility. Quebec isn't perfect, but it's making progress. Can you tell us about the latest developments in recycling and environmental protection, and specifically the latest innovations in plastics recycling, the topic of our study?

In your opinion, what role does Quebec play in the conversation about plastics recycling, whether with other provinces in Canada or with the United States? I know that Éco Entreprises Québec is working very closely with municipalities in Quebec to standardize practices by 2025, and also with organizations in other provinces, such as Circular Materials. What can you tell us about that?

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

Thank you for your kind words and for the question.

First of all, in Quebec we have the Regulation respecting the recovery and reclamation of products by enterprises, which establishes extended producer responsibility, or EPR, and which is regarded by many people around the world as probably the most challenging, rigorous and ambitious. There is so much in the regulation.

We talked earlier about local recycling. The Quebec government has made recycling mandatory, in Quebec and in neighbouring provinces. I think one of our real strengths in Quebec is polystyrene recycling. It is not popular in other parts of the country, but in Quebec, we have built a good ecosystem, for both the transport and the recycling of polystyrene. As a result, even if polystyrene is in many cases banned outside Quebec, we are really opposed to banning it in Quebec, precisely because we have created that recycling chain.

I talked about sorting centres. We are very proud of the sorting centre we are going to open in Montreal East, which will probably be one of the most modern ones in North America. We talked about robotics and artificial intelligence. We are very proud to have worked with Quebec companies that are experts in the field and that are also building sorting centres elsewhere in the world, such as Machinex and Waste Robotics.

So a number of things are happening in Quebec, and there will be even more next year with the modernization of curbside recycling.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Congratulations. Thank you very much.

There is a lot of talk about biodegradability, a complex but important concept. It is seen as an alternative to recycling. Ultimately, though, I think you would agree that it isn't a way to shift the problem. We know for example that certain bioplastics can be in the environment for 428 days without showing the slightest sign of degradation. Isn't it preferable to reuse or recycle single-use plastic, even compostable plastic?

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

Yes, I certainly agree on that point.

Essentially, we have to think of the source of the problem. If the problem is the result of excess pollution of the environment by plastics, the idea of manufacturing plastic that is supposed to degrade in the environment is not necessarily the best approach. The goal should instead be to try to change public behaviour so that kind of plastic doesn't end up in the environment, or to build infrastructures, primarily outside of homes, so people can dispose of their packaging at the right place and not in nature.

There is a lot of talk about biodegradability. We were very pleased to see that the federal government wants to ban the word “biodegradable” as regards plastics. In many cases, they are not in fact biodegradable, unfortunately. In many cases, they become smaller pieces of plastic, microplastics, which end up in the environment or in the human body. I agree that we should not try to replace one thing with another that could result in even worse problems or consequences.

For our part, as I said, we have imposed a penalty in that regard, a malus: Our producers who make products with biodegradable compostable plastics will pay higher contributions to Éco Entreprises Quebec than the companies that do not. We see that as a way of encouraging people to do the right thing, that is, not to use that kind of plastic. I think it is certainly preferable to produce recyclable plastics, that can go through the cycle, as opposed to biodegradable plastics.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the federal plastics registry. The federal government's intention is good, but I am keen to see the results. We need good intentions, but also positive action and good results. The federal plastics registry will be mandatory, but who will monitor it?

What specifically are you proposing to make sure the registry works and produces results so that we are not just going around in circles, which is what we have seen with other good intentions from the government?

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

We have had a number of interesting conversations about the registry.

As you know, as the organization that manages extended producer responsibility, we receive a tremendous amount of information from our producers regarding the packaging they want to market. We suggested to the federal government that we could forward that information to the registry, but the registry and the information we receive are not in the same categories, unfortunately. So we will not be able to share with the federal government what is happening provincially. I think that is problematic for producers because they have to send two different reports about two different categories and provide various different types of information.

As to what is needed, I think it would be helpful to have more information about plastics. On the other hand, since the registry is so exhaustive and requires so much information that producers do not have right now, there is a significant risk that the information could be seen as being at too high a level. The registry is based on many hypotheses, namely that a lot of things will be counted twice since what is required is unfortunately extremely exhaustive. The registry's objective is interesting because we need more information about plastics. Some adjustments are needed, however, in the way that information is gathered. That being said, the registry will be in effect next year. It will be interesting to see how things unfold.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you. That's our time. That was great.

Now we're going to turn to MP Cannings for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. It's been very interesting.

I'm going to start with Dr. Arjmand. It's always nice to have someone from the Okanagan Valley here. You talked about some of the problems with recycled plastic, that it doesn't have quite the qualities that virgin plastic made directly from petrochemicals does. However, you suggested, I think, that if we added certain chemicals to that plastic we could use it for other purposes.

One thing I read in some information on you is that you're also working on 3-D printing of building components and things like that. Is that a way we could use recycled plastics for materials that would make them as good as or better than the virgin plastics we've been producing?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

It's a great question. I think we can take two strategies over here.

Any company that wants to work in this area should know whether, if they can process a plastic and reuse it, they can find the target market for that one as well as for the one without any additives. Sometimes it might not be necessary to add some extra components to improve physical properties. We can easily process the plastics and then maybe use them for some inferior applications as soon as they have their own market. That's the first part.

As a second solution, it is possible to add some additives to these plastics to improve their physical properties. Doing that, first of all, would give more value to the product, and it would also diversify the market. It's the way to go, particularly as I believe the technology exists, but as per my experience over the last couple of years with some companies, unfortunately many of them don't have expertise in this area. Maybe if there was more connection with.... We actually have many good polymer scientists all across Canada, and that would help a lot.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

One of the problems with recycled plastics, as I understand, is the cost. We're going through a lot of processes to reproduce this. Is the main part of that cost the sorting of the volume you have? It strikes me that, if we move to some of these more AI-based sorting systems, we could get very large volumes, and we need large volumes to deal with the problem. Would that ultimately bring that cost down?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

It's a good question. I think that, because the challenge is huge, the solution should be huge as well. That's number one. The way companies look at plastic is that if they receive, let's say, a pound of polyethylene for $1 per pound, for recycling they need to collect it, and there is a cost for that. They need to separate it, and then they are going to reprocess it, and it's maybe going to cost much more than virgin plastics.

Unless there is an incentive from the federal government, I believe maybe the companies are not interested in moving in that direction.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Mr. Mathieu-Poulin, you talked about global best practices. I just want to give you some time to perhaps highlight some of what other countries are doing that we should steal and do ourselves. Finland was mentioned, but I'm sure there are other examples.

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

Both we and Circular Materials are part of EXPRA, which is a group of international pros like us who manage EPR systems in provinces or states. That's really a good area where we can share best practices. We often go to Europe to see what's happening. One thing that's very interesting in France, for example, is that they added a second layer between the sorting centre and the recycler that they call a secondary sorting.

We ask a lot of our sorting centres. They receive a lot of things that they should not be receiving. I invite all of you to go visit one if you haven't visited one. It's something I think every citizen should do. Once you see that, you see what we're asking of them. To get the quality of bales afterwards is almost impossible. What they're doing in France is that they have a second sorter. All of the plastics get sorted together at the sorting centre, and then there's another facility that sorts them out in different categories for the different demands of the recyclers, as my colleague mentioned.

There are these ideas that are coming up. This is something we're discussing with Circular Materials: Should we have secondary sorting in Canada? We're talking about technologies again and AI. A lot of it is happening here. Funnily enough, as I mentioned, a lot of Canadian companies are building sorting centres in other areas of the world. One of the most famous ones is in Great Britain, in Coventry, and it's being built by a Quebec company that does sorting equipment.

I think we have the knowledge. As we mentioned, I think we just need the policy and we just need the investment, but we are asking a lot about what's going on everywhere.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

I'll just turn back to Mr. Langdon, because I couldn't write this down fast enough.

You had two recommendations. I just want to give you maybe 25 seconds now to rephrase those so I can have a clear idea of what you're asking.