Science and Research Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Allen Langdon]

The first was to incentivize and de-risk private infrastructure investments in innovation and circular plastic projects through the existing federal funding programs. The second was to expedite the development of a federal infrastructure and innovation fund that would help scale up and commercialize technologies and solutions for the reuse and recycling of plastics.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Now we will turn to MP Viersen for five minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start with you, Mr. Arjmand. If there is a country that's doing this well, which one would you pick?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

I think Germany, Sweden and Finland are doing great in this area, to the best of my knowledge.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

If we were to benchmark one of them, which one would you pick?

[Mohammad Arjmand]

I would pick maybe Sweden. I think they are doing great.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Langdon, you talked about regulations. I know that in my own backyard we have several waste facility organizations that are doing cardboard recycling, plastic recycling and things like that. There are third party companies that come in to do that. Now, what's interesting is around an environmental assessment for their own facilities. When they take the cardboard or they take the plastic away from the waste disposal facility or the landfill, they bring it to another location. They're talking to me about the fact that they're being regulated as if they are a landfill, and they're having to go through all kinds of regulation each year to recertify and things like that. Is this something that you're finding across the country, or is that specific to Alberta?

[Allen Langdon]

No, I think in various jurisdictions it's harder and harder to site lots of industrial developments, but particularly recycling infrastructure. One of the challenges since we launched EPR and we had to find new facilities has been finding appropriate locations to be able to site and build the infrastructure to meet that challenge, for sure.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Would you say that that's a major impediment to this stuff coming online more quickly? I know that I've met with folks who want to recycle plastic and who have a market for the end product, but they are just saying that they cannot find a place that will allow them to do it.

[Allen Langdon]

It wouldn't be the top challenge we see. Obviously, it's a challenge for some companies, but I think for us, it really comes down to funding. Are we able to find the appropriate funding to de-risk those investments? Can we find technologies and innovation that allow us to recycle these plastics? There's a wide range of plastics available on the market.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Mathieu-Poulin, I don't know if you're the correct person to ask this. It might be for the folks beside you. It's around energy consumption to recycle the plastic, versus the energy that is available in the plastic. I know that, with the waste management in northern Alberta, the plastic becomes a major feedstock for their energy sources, for the waste management more generally. They're using some of that energy to sterilize the composting that they're doing, for example, so that when you get your compost back from the waste management centre, you're not filling your garden full of weeds or something like that.

Can you talk a little bit about the usage of the energy that's available there, and then what it takes to reuse or recycle? Is that a net positive or a net negative?

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

I think the research proves that in the majority of cases the carbon footprint of recycled plastic is much better than that of virgin plastic, which means that despite all of the steps, as we mentioned—the transport of it, the sorting of it, the recycling of it, and then the shipment back to it—it depends on the types of plastic, but there is around 75% less of a carbon footprint in recycled plastic.

Where it becomes interesting is in the new technologies, as we mentioned, like chemical recycling technologies, which are going to be looking to break down plastic back to the monomers. Those are going to be very energy-intensive. In that case, there are questions that are being asked right now: If there is so much energy, so much carbon, that goes into breaking down that plastic, are we moving the environmental gain from recycling plastic back to creating greenhouse gases?

In the vast majority of physical recycling, mechanical recycling, there is value in recycling it before doing any other type of waste-to-energy process to it.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Just in that one instance, in breaking it back down into its basic polymers, there is a large energy requirement. Is there enough energy in the plastic to consume some plastic to get recycled plastic out of the end? Is that a possibility?

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

That's an interesting idea. Again, it depends on where you're doing it. Obviously, it will depend on the type of energy you're using. That's always the case in carbon footprint. If you're using hydro versus oil already.... In the case where you were using oil to produce your energy, taking plastic to do it could make sense, because that's oil. Where you have greener energy, either wind, solar, or hydro, obviously you would prefer using that energy versus burning any plastics to create that energy. In that case, maybe the carbon footprint would actually be net positive even for very energy-intensive technologies for chemical recycling.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's our time. Thank you.

Now we're going to turn to MP Kelloway for five minutes, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

This is really interesting testimony. I come from a political science background and not a particular science background, so a lot of this is new to me, but some of it is not. When we talk about how we as a country up our game with respect to the themes that you've brought up, there were four particular areas: change in policy, change in investment, incentivizing and de-risking.

For the witnesses here, and then we'll go to the witness online, I'm wondering if we could just unpack policy in an example of investment and a guesstimate in terms of what that would be. Can you give an example of incentivizing and an example of de-risking? I wonder if we could start here, and then we can finally go to the witness who's online.

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

I'll try to remember the order. Let's start with policy first.

I think one good example of what's currently being discussed in Canada is mandatory recycled content in some products. We know that to drive the recycling system, you need demand. For example, if you're mandating people, in some industries, to use recycled content where they can—and it has to be done in the right way and not everywhere—if it is done the right way, then it creates markets for recyclers, and that's what they need to create those investments. That's a good use of policy.

On investment, I think we did mention earlier that the fund is a great idea. I think right now lots of recyclers, especially, don't know where to turn to, specifically. Having, for example, a fund that's specifically for plastic recycling would be a good option.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

With lots and lots of money....

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

Yes, hopefully.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Next is incentivizing.

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

That is something we do, for example, through EPR. As I mentioned, producers have to pay a certain fee for the plastic they put on the market. For example, for the plastic that we want to see, we give a lower fee, and for the plastics we don't want to see, we put a higher fee. That's a way to incentivize good behaviour.

I think that EPR in itself is an incentive for good behaviour with plastics, and that's what's happening across the provinces. That's one thing we can do.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Next is de-risking.

[Charles David Mathieu-Poulin]

Regarding de-risking, I think the point that Allen made was good. A lot of people right now are saying that they would love to install an industry in Canada. First of all, virgin resin is a commodity, and the problem right now is that the moment the costs for virgin go down, nobody will want to buy any recycled plastics anymore. In that sense, maybe we can de-risk that investment by giving the same value for virgin and recycled content.