Science and Research Committee on Nov. 5th, 2025

[Michelle McGinn]

Thank you for sending your child to our institution.

Brock works very closely with the grape and wine industry in lots of ways. Members of the industry are part of our advisory committee. The industry came together to fund and found the Cool Climate Oenology and Viticulture Institute. As part of that, Ontario Grape and Wine Research Inc. provides to us on an annual basis what their research priorities are to ensure that the research that happens through the Cool Climate Oenology and Viticulture Institute is directly tied to the research needs of the community.

When a specific question or topic comes to us from an individual grape grower, winemaker or wine producer, or from any point in the pipeline, we assemble a research team to resolve that question. Because it is directly related to a question that they have, they can see that our institution is responsible and responsive to their needs, and will be able to invest or put their money towards whatever that topic is in such a way that it can build together, and in many cases leverage some other external funding as well, and pull those together to solve a challenge that an individual industry partner may have or that is also relevant to the broader industry. If a question about one particular—

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON]

My time is short, and I also want to get an opportunity to talk about the BioLinc incubator. There's another success story locally. Destiny Copper comes right out of Brock University from Greg Hanna, the CEO, who came from the BioLinc incubator, and Professor Ian Brindle.

To my colleague's point, you generate that idea and you use the incubator to foster it and grow it. Then, to be able to scale it, how do we go through that process? How was Brock able to help?

[Michelle McGinn]

It's about having some of the minds who are behind those ideas generated in this space to take those out, but it's also about the relationship built during that time frame. Destiny Copper is a great example. We can see the work they came through with in identifying with copper, how they can extract copper, and to do the very many things they can do with that. It's also about the relationship that's built, which then expands to other potential relationships.

We had a researcher here who was called into a local community to try to resolve an issue with algae bloom in the local waterway. By studying that algae bloom, he discovered that the algae was actually extracting heavy metals from the water. There was copper in there. Destiny Copper is now working with the copper being extracted from the algae bloom. In solving that algae bloom problem, now there is a relationship there, and Destiny Copper now has access to copper to continue their work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you. The time is up.

We will now proceed to MP Jaczek for six minutes please.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony.

Dr. De Marcellis-Warin, you made reference to European models. I think you called them RTOs. In particular, you mentioned Fraunhofer in Germany. We heard a couple of other witnesses during the study make reference to Fraunhofer.

Could you specifically identify the areas where, in your view, these models are successful? What are we missing here in Canada? What is the specific move attracting private investment, moving through to commercialization and intellectual property?

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit.

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Indeed, the examples I have presented are cases where attempts have been made to bring fundamental research closer to businesses. The aim is to exploit inventions, but also to carry out what I call transitional research. This means that researchers conduct more applied research and ensure that they produce prototypes and find practical applications, for example. This is what they are doing in the many institutes that have been set up in Europe, particularly in Germany.

Ultimately, the most important thing is to demonstrate that what is done in fundamental research can be used and applied in certain fields. Proof of concept is needed. From there, as this experimental research is sometimes quite costly, the costs and risks involved are shared. This makes it possible to showcase fundamental research and transform it.

Often, what is missing here is this applied research component. As I said earlier, researchers sometimes have great difficulty protecting their intellectual property and finding the right people or industries to apply their research. The institutes I mentioned can play this role and fulfill this mission. Most of their researchers do applied research and do not have academic careers with publication goals, but they still have very important expertise and will focus on the link with businesses.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you for that.

In other words, the institutes bring the parties together so that there's collaboration from the get-go, so to speak. It starts with an idea, and then businesses are interested and need development, and so on.

In terms of your institute, CIRANO, is this exactly how you're functioning here in Canada? What are you missing in this whole transition from idea to commercialization?

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin]

I thank the member for her question.

We are studying innovation analysis, and we find that, most of the time, what we lack is financial support to ensure the sustainability of these models. In Germany and elsewhere in Europe, funding for institutes is distributed in such a way that one third comes from public funds to ensure their sustainability, one third comes from industrial contracts, and one third comes from licences and private revenue.

In Quebec, there are a few examples, such as INO, which is a centre of expertise in optics and photonics, and the Computer Research Institute of Montreal, or CRIM, for artificial intelligence. However, we see that they mainly obtain private contracts to support their work, but they do not have the funds to ensure the sustainability of their operations. Ultimately, what is important is to define transitional research as one of the essential links in the success of R and D.

Obviously, these institutes attract private funding because they attract industry, but they lack this source of public funding. In Europe, institutes also seek competitive public contracts. They participate in major competitions such as Horizon Europe. They are stakeholders because they have strong links with universities and businesses. They still receive significant public funding to ensure their operation.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

You also mentioned tax incentives. There have been some announcements in our most recent budget, which is public. Do you see that this is going to be valuable going forward?

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin]

I think so, yes.

Actually, tax benefits are incentives, and they're really important for businesses when they find a profitable opportunity to bring something to the market. When these incentives were improved, we'd already measured how effective they were at attracting private investments in research and development. As I said, though, tax benefits aren't enough. Having a pool of talent and expertise is also important. The experimental development of discoveries, something I talked about earlier, is difficult to fund, and that's a weakness that needs to be strengthened.

There's a difference between discovery and innovation. Discovery is the search for new ideas with potential, while innovation is what opens the door to commercializing an idea or capturing its value to build wealth. That's the really important part: finding real-world applications for ideas.

The changes made to the scientific research and experimental development program will attract more private investment, because the program's benefits will apply to every dollar invested. That said, tax benefits are not enough. It's also important to invest in talent, and to strengthen the weakness that is the experimental development of discoveries.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Do I have some time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

You have seven seconds.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I'll cede that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Miller, in the budget, the government states that it wants to make Canada a world leader in innovation. However, the budget doesn't include any increase in funding for basic research, for the three granting councils or for universities. There's nothing, not even to help with inflation.

How can Canada become a leader in innovation if the government won't invest in universities, researchers or the next generation of scientists? They are the foundation of innovation.

[Gabriel Miller]

Thank you for the question.

It's true that there is a long way to go to make Canada into the leader in science and innovation globally, but we are encouraged by yesterday's budget for a few reasons.

One is a major investment in bringing and developing research talent in Canada. Another is a recognition that there are enormous economic benefits for Canada to be captured if we strengthen the relationship between our strategic objectives in areas like defence and sovereignty, the universities where research takes place and the business community. We can meet our objectives in research and defence but also expand our economy and capture more of those benefits here.

Most of all, what is striking about yesterday's budget is the vision for the country's economy. It clearly recognizes the vital role universities would be playing. That gives us a foundation for building a long-term vision for science and innovation in universities in Canada. That will help us achieve the leadership you're describing.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Miller, in its budget, the government proposes to invest an incredible amount in public computing infrastructure for AI. However, this support will come from organizations under the direct responsibility of the federal government, that is the bureau of research, engineering and advanced leadership in innovation and science, a new federal body also known as BOREALIS, and Industry Canada. The budget doesn't mention anything about working with universities or giving researchers priority access.

The government is replacing open science with a centralized industry-oriented platform it will control.

I'd like to know Universities Canada's position on this. How does this budget work for you as it relates to the basic research being done in your member universities?

[Gabriel Miller]

You're absolutely right that our system requires fundamental research, and there are substantial investments being made in that area. The government made important commitments in budget 2024 and we expect those to be followed up on.

We also know we're at a moment in Canada where we need to make targeted, mission-driven investments to transform our economy and, frankly, to bolster our position on the world stage. It is not a replacement for basic research funding. This is absolutely correct, and I strongly agree with you, but it is an important complement, and it is part of a national mission that universities want and can be part of today.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. De Marcellis‑Warin, many witnesses have talked about the applied research being done in colleges and college centres for technology transfer, in part because of how important these establishments are for the regions they're in. The role of university research is not mentioned as much.

As an interuniversity research, liaison and transfer centre, CIRANO acts as a link between basic research and the real-world economy.

Could you tell us how your approach differs from the applied research approach?

How do you transform university research results into a real-world tool for businesses and public policy?

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin]

Thank you for the question.

College centres for technology transfer, or CCTTs, are a good example when it comes to technology transfer.

CIRANO collects evidence to help governments make better decisions. Our role is to carry out research in social and human sciences, namely in economy, but we also try to come up with solutions. We make public policy recommendations to all levels of government, and try to bring together public and private sector stakeholders in this ecosystem so they can think collectively.

We do this on a regular basis. That's our role. Our research studies are always discussed beforehand. First, we set the priorities, and look at topics of interest for both researchers and public decision-makers. We have a whole list of research topics to choose from, and we have access to economic-analysis data.

We make sure to publish all research results, regardless of the type of results or the level of government the research was for. We prepare briefing notes and make applicable recommendations. That's really our role: to make recommendations. We look at how feasible they are, and how they will impact government finances and civil society actors.

With our approach, science is at the service of public policy decision-making.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

CIRANO works with a large number of universities, businesses and public agencies.

How do you manage intellectual property and commercialization under that partnership model?

The federal government doesn't have a clear framework on intellectual property from public research. Does that make your job more difficult when it comes to technology transfer and commercialization?

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin]

All CIRANO members are university professors. This means CIRANO doesn't manage the intellectual property; universities do.

However, we're working on that. Depending on the circumstances, it can be necessary to manage intellectual property to avoid certain issues. Some research leads to dashboards or products. When that happens, the researcher and university hold the intellectual property rights.

We help the research move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will have two minutes for each party, and then we will end this panel.

I will go to MP Baldinelli for two minutes.

[An hon. member]

Actually, it will be Mr. Holman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay.

Mr. Holman, please go ahead. You will have two minutes.