Evidence of meeting #36 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Belzile  Acting Executive Director, Research, École de technologie supérieure
Shorey  President and Chief Executive Officer, Invest Ottawa
Pawluk  President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks
Church  Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Huebert  Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Doyle  Executive Director, Tech-Access Canada

12:40 p.m.

Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Robert Huebert

Yes.

Canada has a fundamental problem when it comes to understanding defence economies, dual-use and all of the issues that we are now focused on. We simply do not have the capability—and I'll get into the reasons in a moment—to critically evaluate and understand defence economics in Canada.

The community of scholars who are able to watch this is very small. I can list the five. There's Craig Stone, who is now retired; Dave Perry, who is the head of a think tank; Phil Lagassé, who's over at Carleton University; Richard Shimooka, who you heard from and who is also a member of a think tank; and Elinor Sloan. The list pretty well ends at that point. We don't have a robust community and an ability to actually examine and provide the arm's-length analysis of what we're trying to do in this particular context.

There are three reasons for this. The first one, of course, is that our major funding agencies have not chosen to make defence politics and defence economics a priority. When we look at both what SSHRC provides for and what the Canada research chairs provide for, it's literally almost impossible to find any acceptance or studies being conducted in this context.

In fact, when we look at the Canada research chairs—and this is my quick examination of this—I can find only two who really have defence orientations. They are, of course, very good people. They're Dr. Stéfanie von Hlatky, over at Queen's University, and Whitney Lackenbauer, over at Trent. You're not going to find anybody else on the CRC, so there has not been support for the individual and intellectual foundations we need.

When we look at DND's MINDS program, we see that it is a robust program. I have to acknowledge that I am a co-director of one of the networks, but the networks are only three years in duration, so you spend your first year setting it up, you spend the second year doing the research, and the third year, you're again thinking about the renewal. This creates difficulties for any longevity.

The third problem is universities themselves. They have not made defence studies a priority. As a result, hiring is reflected in this.

I'm constantly producing students who I think would make very good contributions to understanding defence economies, but unfortunately, they don't find positions within academia. For example, Tim Choi—a very brilliant mind—who is now working for Treasury Board on the shipbuilding strategy, was not able to find anything within a university. Another name that you will see all the time in the press is Heather Exner-Pirot, one of Canada's leading experts on critical minerals and mining policy. Again, the difficulty of ensuring that these very bright minds are brought in is very limited.

This leads me to my second major point, and that is the research impact. When we look at our attempts to understand Canada's policies—both successes and failures—when it comes to defence economies and when we talk about dual purposes, we have absolutely no lessons learned.

Let's look at successful defence procurement projects, such as the C-17s. Where are the open studies to tell us how we got that right, how we were able to move that up and how we were able to bring that under budget? We can also look at the frigate modernization as a success. Where are the studies on that to allow us to ask how we were able to bring it in on time and provide for a very successful follow-up?

Likewise, on the negative, when we look, for example, at “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, which was brought forward in 2017 as Canada's defence policy, there was considerable attention given to it as being fully costed. Where are the studies to say how successful it was, or, if it was not successful, what are the failures?

I'll end on two last points. We also have the difficulty of access to information. It's very hard to interview you folks now to really get to the bottom of when mistakes are made and when there are successes. Documents are very difficult. I'm currently researching and looking at our overall maritime strategy. I've spent the last four months trying to get access to the Canadian shipbuilding strategy—not the government report and not what the government says it says, but the actual report.

Now, it may be an indication that I'm just not a good researcher on this, and perhaps that's why I can't find it. I've gone through access to information. I've used my contacts through MINDS. I can't get a handle on that document, which means that either the document doesn't exist—and I'm hoping that's not the case—or it has been hidden so well—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Dr. Huebert. Your time is up, so if you can, please wind up.

12:45 p.m.

Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Robert Huebert

In conclusion, the question I leave you with, as a committee, is this: How can we actually say we're going to have a dual-use strategy when we don't understand where we have succeeded and where we have failed and when the community is not able to properly access this, as any of the other G7 countries are able to do?

Thank you—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up. Maybe you can talk further on that when we go into the rounds of questioning.

Now we will go to Mr. Doyle for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

Ken Doyle Executive Director, Tech-Access Canada

Thank you for the invitation to join you again for this very timely study.

The traditional dual-use model is familiar. Technologies developed for defence, like GPS, the Global Positioning System, eventually find civilian applications. More recently, commercial technologies with roots in defence, like drones and Starlink, are increasingly being adopted for operational use in conflict zones. Rather than relying on these slow and opportunistic evolutions, we have an opportunity to make dual-use innovation intentional, demand-driven and deployment-focused.

Canada spent decades pushing innovation into the world, hoping someone would find a use for it. Meanwhile, our men and women in uniform are facing real problems in real time. What if we flipped the model? What if we started with the Canadian Armed Forces' operational challenges and pulled the best of Canadian innovation toward them, fast? This isn't about building more innovation; it's about aiming it properly and delivering when it matters.

At technology access centres, we don't start with a technological solution looking for a problem. We start with the problem. What are the operational challenges on the ground, at sea or in the air right now? Then we ask, what technologies already exist in Canada that can help solve them? That's a demand-pull model. We act as scientific troubleshooters and innovation problem-solvers. We don't just ask what's possible; we ask what works and how fast we can deploy it.

Importantly, this isn't theoretical. A recent independent federal evaluation of the college and community innovation program found that technology access centres are delivering measurable economic and innovation impacts across Canada. The evaluation found that firms working with TACs improved productivity, accelerated time to market, strengthened their competitive position and increased revenues and hiring. In fact, small firms that worked with a TAC experienced average increases of 143% in sales and 69% in employment following engagement with a TAC, compared to companies that did not. That's not innovation theory; that's deployment at work.

We've done this before in automotive, in energy and in other sectors during moments of disruption or transition. We've helped companies modernize operations, adopt technologies, stay alive and remain competitive, not by advising from the sidelines but by working shoulder to shoulder to implement solutions. We take things that normally take years for companies to figure out internally—technology adoption, validation, deployment—and compress those timelines dramatically. We're a force multiplier. More importantly, we're a time compressor.

With that in mind, I want to propose two practical near-term actions—not studies and not strategies, but deployable actions.

The first is dual-use technology assessments. Under this model, Canadian SMEs would work directly with technology access centres to adapt, prototype, test, validate and accelerate dual-use technologies, while ensuring those same companies retain their intellectual property and commercial upside. Fuelling the work would generally fall into three streams: first, existing defence technologies that require an objective validation and refinement; second, civilian technologies with potential defence applications; and third, entirely new solutions to operational challenges identified by the Canadian Armed Forces. Some projects could be completed within six months, others within 12 to 18 months, but the point is speed. While others are still capability mapping, we're already in the field.

The second is supplier modernization for defence readiness. If we're serious about readiness, we need to strengthen the backbone of the supply chain—our tier two and tier three manufacturers and suppliers. These are companies that need to adopt robotics, automation, specialized equipment, advanced manufacturing techniques and digital systems to increase productivity, meet OEM quality standards and participate in defence supply chains. If we can help upgrade the shop floor, we can help unlock the supply chain.

Canada has done this before. The British Commonwealth air training plan demonstrated what this country can accomplish when infrastructure, talent and mission align around a common purpose. During the Second World War, Canada helped scale the production of the De Havilland Mosquito, a versatile platform adapted into reconnaissance, fighter, bomber and transport roles, with multirole capability, rapid adaption and industrial coordination. Somewhere along that way, that industrial muscle atrophied. Rebuilding it won't be easy, but applied R and D and rapid commercialization are part of that rehabilitation process.

Technology access centres are a turnkey pan-Canadian network of applied R and D and commercialization centres. We share a common operating model. We're embedded in industry, and we already have the infrastructure—simulation labs, environmental testing facilities, pilot scale manufacturing capacity, robotics platforms and specialized testing equipment—distributed across the country. We do not need to build a new system; the system already exists. The need has finally aligned with this capacity, so turn us loose.

If you want evidence, we can point to the more than 50,000 Canadian SMEs that have worked with a technology access centre since 2012—and I'm willing to go further. I'm willing to be held accountable for performance, outputs and outcomes, because this is not about more innovation; it's about deploying what we already have when it matters most.

The ask is simple. Unleash us, and let's move at the speed that this moment demands. While others are still discussing frameworks, we should already be validating technologies. Our goal should be to have the first wave of projects completed within 180 days of the D-Day anniversary, before December 31 of this year.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thanks to all the witnesses for their opening remarks. We have combined panels one and two, so we have two witnesses from the first panel and three witnesses from the second panel.

When we went to the debate on the motion by MP Ho, MP Ho had completed the six minutes of his first round. We will now proceed to MP Rana for six minutes.

Go ahead, MP Rana.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your time and for your patience.

My question is for Dr. Church.

As we expand our defence surveillance, particularly in northern and remote areas, do we have the opportunity to improve the data of the Canadian geological survey?

12:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual

Ian Church

This is a good question.

It's about a combination of operational assets that exist that can help collect and improve our data in the Canadian Arctic. The Royal Canadian Navy has a big interest in operating in the Canadian Arctic. They've built the Harry DeWolf-class Arctic and offshore patrol vessels, but there's an operational limit to working in the Arctic.

Right now, very little of the Arctic is mapped to modern standards, which means that it's very difficult to operate in that environment. As the area becomes more and more ice-free, it becomes more and more challenging to police to limit what other vessels are going up there. There's a huge need to collect more and more data. A lot of that data is not going to be collected by the Royal Canadian Navy. It's going to be collected by the Coast Guard in collaboration with other federal departments, like Natural Resources Canada, the Geological Survey of Canada and specifically the Canadian Hydrographic Service.

Having a maritime situational awareness collected and managed by the Coast Guard and working together with the Royal Canadian Navy and other federal departments are really going to add a lot of capability to the system.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

Ms. Pawluk, RaceRocks works across defence, aerospace, marine and coast guard training. Where in the shift from R and D to operational training do you see the most room for collaboration?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks

Anita Pawluk

Collaboration would be working on the relationships already built between the Canadian Coast Guard and the coastal nations. There's a workforce there that's ready to be developed. It's actually already developed. All we need now are some shared standards to include them in an integrated workforce that will help with workforce development and coastal security.

After talking to Dr. Church, they could also be collecting data as another source, another group, to support the lands and waters that they know best.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

What has your experience been navigating the procurement and innovation ecosystem, and how do you expect the DIS to improve access for companies like yours?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks

Anita Pawluk

When I spoke earlier to innovative solutions Canada's testing stream, the validation to commercialization was the biggest challenge for us, knowing that the two programs work sequentially. When you start into one, you know that your path will not be disrupted by procurement or the lack of funds in the department that's requiring your services or goods, which ensures that you can start a program and complete it and not have money removed from that budget.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

What opportunities do you see for provinces and territories building out the training and workforce components of the DIS?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks

Anita Pawluk

I'm sorry; can you repeat that?

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

What are the opportunities for the provinces and territories to collaborate with the DIS?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks

Anita Pawluk

With training, you can build it once and deliver it often. I think the ability to collaborate among different industries with different training platforms is there for us.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I would like to share my time with my colleague, please.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Tony Baldinelli

You have two minutes and 15 seconds.

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Winnipeg West, MB

Thank you.

Dr. Church, you've done some work demonstrating how technologies that are developed for civilian use can be adapted to military use. In today's environment, how would you advise us to shorten the gap between the research side in universities and operationalization at a military level?

12:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual

Ian Church

One thing we can focus on is trying to develop pathways within focused areas. We can have some of the networks we've seen developed within ideas, but from a broader perspective. If we can have more networks that are focused on bringing people together within the same community, within the same research areas, then we can start to see real advancement. They are not hugely broad organizations that bring everybody together. They're not just focusing on very specific things like quantum or something like that, but focusing more holistically in specific areas. I think that will have a big impact.

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Winnipeg West, MB

Thank you.

How much time do I have left?

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

You have 46 seconds.

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Winnipeg West, MB

Thank you.

Mr. Doyle, there are communities that have military and civilian facilities close by as part of the same economy. In Winnipeg, we have a large air force base, 17 Wing. We also have Boeing. We have StandardAero. These civilian companies, of course, are providing a lot of products that are used in the military. Do you see the defence industrial strategy we're putting forward as helping to facilitate this and have it work more seamlessly?

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Tech-Access Canada

Ken Doyle

I do. In fact, one of our centres in Winnipeg is co-located with a defence company, Magellan Aerospace, and with Bristol Aerospace. We try to act almost like WD-40 to get some of that friction out of the picture and make the connections between industry and the end-user, the Canadian Forces, that much more expeditious. We're able to co-locate with private sector partners and share resources and upskill personnel—that kind of thing—with the goal of maximizing efficiencies.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, but your time is up.