Evidence of meeting #5 for Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Jean Crowder
Thank you very much.
The final question will go to Ms. McLeod, for seven minutes.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
WItnesses, thank you for your testimony this evening.
Since we met last time, there has been a very significant court decision, which Ms. Pate alluded to. I'm not sure we necessarily have to remain silent to that in this committee in terms of our conversation about it and some thinking about it in terms of recommendations that this committee has that comes out of it.
Certainly I see that you're part of the Women's Coalition for the Abolition of Prostitution, which is composed of seven groups. Could you speak to the issue of prostitution and aboriginal women from your organization's perspective? You hear people say that it's harmless, but I'd like your organization's perspective as we go forward with the issue of grappling with that decision over the next year.
Perhaps you could make some comments for me on that.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
In 2008 our organization changed our position from being a position of decriminalization across the board to the position we have now of calling for the decriminalization of women and girls always, and the continued indictment of the buying and selling of women and girls.
Part of the reason we came to that position is the law.... I worked on some of these initiatives. We had argued for decriminalization at a time when the decision was made not to decriminalize, at a time when the law was asymmetrically applied against women. Women would be charged and prosecuted and jailed for selling their bodies, but you wouldn't necessarily see the law applied to men who bought them.
I know there are men who sell, and they tend to age out more than women do, and there are women who buy as well. But overwhelmingly, the majority is....
When the law was made so-called “gender neutral”, what we saw was the development of John schools and diversion programs for men, but women still went to jail.
We also saw, over that period of time, the evisceration of the social safety net, the elimination of the Canada assistance plan which I alluded to. We saw the increased marginalization of women and the increased economic, social, and legal inequality of women.
Our position is not just about prostitution, but it is very much that we need a guaranteed livable income. We need adequate social services. We need housing initiatives. We need educational supports and initiatives. We need health, and particularly mental health initiatives. That is what is needed in order to ensure that women aren't in positions where they're increasingly at risk of having no other option but to sell their bodies to support themselves and/or their children.
Where they don't have those options, or where they choose those options, they should never be criminalized.
What we know is that in communities where we have seen the decriminalization, we are seeing the increased commodification, and the increased demand for the commodification of women. In a context where we're seeing the increased sexual commodification of women and girls despite legal equality—and I say “legal equality”—those women and girls are increasingly at risk of being in those positions. We see, for instance, people being trafficked in communities to meet demand where those services have been decriminalized across the board. We still continue to see those unequal positions, in fact, exacerbated by the notion that women should be sexually available to men at all stages.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Is the Nordic model something you see as one...?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
The Nordic model is one of the examples. There are certainly....
One of the issues we're talking about is looking very much at a Canadian initiative. The Nordic model has with it many more of the social services and supports in place than we currently have in Canada. It would require a shoring up of the various supports that need to be in place, first and foremost.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
This actually segues a little bit into another point you made. I appreciate that some of the elders might feel some concern, for example, with the shipbuilding industry and what that impact might be, but hopefully in the 21st century it's also going to be an opportunity.
I was a nurse and I worked in a number of aboriginal communities. There were some carpentry programs started and some electrical apprenticeship programs. Some of the most successful graduates were people who had very difficult backgrounds, women who then became very gainfully employed. I hope that rather than it being a concern—and again, I appreciate the past sometimes creates that worry—with job training, some programs will provide, just as you're talking about, that opportunity for some women in the aboriginal communities that are located nearby to have some great opportunities.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
We agree, hence the reason we're trying to intervene there, because that would be a much more productive way, and that's what we have encouraged to happen. However, we are painfully aware of what happened in Fort St. John in particular, and what that is creating in terms of an incredible demand, a huge male work base that is brought in, and the huge demand for an influx of women to be made sexually available to those men. That's what we don't want to see repeated in Halifax or any other community, quite frankly.
I would agree that a far better approach would be to have that kind of training. Again, with the notion that women are not necessarily treated as equally in this country—usually men are privileged in those positions—I would support all initiatives to privilege and support women having opportunities in those areas.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
It was interesting. I was talking to a young aboriginal about this particular study. Unfortunately, she still uses her thumb to hitchhike. Before she gets into a car, she actually takes a picture of it with her camera and tweets it. I thought it was very interesting. It's not ideal. It's sharing that with other young girls who are hitchhiking, but she at least takes a safety measure. I thought in the 30 seconds I had I would share that little story.
The Vice-Chair NDP Jean Crowder
Thank you, Ms. McLeod.
I want to thank both of our witnesses, Ms. Pate and Ms. O'Sullivan, for coming.
Before the committee bolts out of the room, I have one little piece of information. It's a reminder that next Thursday we have witnesses for one hour. In the second hour, we'll start the process of providing the partial drafting instructions to the analysts. It's a reminder to come prepared to do that in the second hour.
I want to thank the committee for allowing me to step in while Ms. Ambler is away.
The meeting is adjourned.
