Status of Women Committee on Sept. 21st, 2006

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I agree that the women's income security issue should be properly studied by this group, and that we should come up with some real recommendations. When we look at all of the issues--trafficking, prostitution, or other things--at the core of them is women's economic instability. That's why they're ending up in some of the areas that they are. I think there are some core issues, and I looked at these with respect to women's economic security this summer. A lot of this has to do with what they call time poverty. A lot of people here know what that means: women are looking after children and elderly parents; they are in and out of the labour force, and by the time they're seniors they end up with a much lower pension. I understand that the average Canada pension for women is about $500, and of course it's much higher for men, and so on. I won't go into all of that. We'll get into those discussions when we get to them. I am pleased we are doing that, and I would like us to have a strong report by the end.

I want to refer to the list of witnesses. I must say I understand and appreciate that it's difficult to fit everyone in, but I can not see how we can possibly discuss women's economic instability or problems without talking to immigrant and visible minority women. I had put in some recommendations and had a list of organizations and groups, but I don't see them represented here. NOIVMW and OCASI are two major organizations. OCASI is an umbrella organization in Ontario for immigrant settlement programs. It's very well known. Of course, NOIVMW is a national women's organization.

In addition to that, I'd like to see a bit more. There's a long list for seniors, but I don't see enough on women like Maxwell and others with respect to younger women dealing with the issues early on before they become poor seniors. I don't see enough of a list there to address those barriers. That's where I would put NOIVMW. I can't remember all the ones I put in, and I'm not suggesting I have to have all of them, but I really think we're quite thin on the ground for information on younger women who are planning their lives, the barriers they face, and the implications on public policy that they have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

One of the things we noticed when we had our last session was that we would get some interesting witnesses, but there was not enough time to get all the questions, answers, and information back. I think it's important when we're looking at these lists that we really identify who is the very best to give us the most accurate reflection of the issues we can get. We are trying to list them, but we don't always know which ones are the best. If there are suggestions as to ones that are better than others or ones that we not have so that we can include some others, those would be quite helpful.

Ms. Smith, go ahead, please.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate what Ms. Mathyssen and others have said. I really believe that immigrant women are key. We need to have a voice from immigrant women and immigrant workers because they have special challenges. That leads into the human trafficking issue as well.

I'm wondering what the timelines are. I understand we're going to be doing this section first and then human trafficking second. What are the timelines? Could you clarify that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I put them both in front of us because they were both issues that the committee indicated they wanted to deal with. The difficulty is we only have so many weeks to be able to do this. If we try to do both, I think it's too much. They're both so important that I don't believe we'll be able to accomplish both within the committee standard. We could take our 16 weeks, focus on economic security, and then plan to focus on human trafficking in February. In the meantime we could start doing the planning for the second session on human trafficking. We probably could get some top-notch stuff done by separating them and focussing our efforts, I would suggest.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I can see that. Both of these are so important. I have special interest in the human trafficking, the immigrant women, and the housing issue as well. Immigrant women and housing issues are extremely important as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Exactly.

If we want to try to get a report in by Christmas, if we were to focus on the economic security issues between now and then—do a good job on it and table a report—and then do the human trafficking with that same kind of intention, I think we would probably be more successful.

I have Ms. Mourani next.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Unless I'm mistaken, Madam Chair, we examined the Canada Pension Plan, Old Age Security and the Guaranteed Income Supplement during the last session. At the time, we focused on the economic status of women.

I'd like our first item of business to be the trafficking in persons and here's why. Admittedly, considerable progress has been made, but much remains to be done. We know that the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights has created a subcommittee on solicitation. Subcommittee members have been meeting and are scheduled to table their report very shortly, in December as a matter of fact.

Given that that Standing Committee on the Status of Women is not taking part in this debate, I believe it's important for us to examine the issue of trafficking in persons. I have yet to see a specific report on the link between the decriminalization or legalization of prostitution and trafficking in persons.

A clear distinction is made between trafficking in persons and prostitution. I may not have read everything out there, but I would be more than happy to look at other documents that delve more closely into this subject. However, in conjunction with the theme “Introduction to the Issue and Legislative Framework”, I'd like to take advantage of the presence of an RCMP representative to have someone explain to me if, as a criminologist, I'm right to believe that a connection exists between the legalization of prostitution and trafficking in persons. I may be wrong, but if that's the case, I'd like to know it for a fact.

I also think it's important to understand the various forms of trafficking. Is a more subtle form of trafficking taking place here in Canada, a less visible kind than the open trafficking in certain developing countries? Are there other issues of concern to women that need to be addressed? Certain immigration programs have occasionally been used to exploit women. It's important to understand what we're dealing with. Personally, I don't know much about this problem and I want to be clearer about it to form an opinion. That's why it's critically important that we have this debate and meet with all of these very interesting people who can give us some insight into these matters and help us draft our report. In my view, it's important to start out by examining the trafficking problem, which is as important a subject as economic security. We touched on this during the last session. Could we examine trafficking? We were supposed to discuss it during the last session, but didn't get around to it. We promised to revisit the issue later. I hope later doesn't mean ten years down the road.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

As I outlined at the beginning, there are only 20 meetings between now and December. A minimum of four are going to have to go to officials, to estimates, to viewing the reports. That leaves you 16 meetings.

We can do a lot of talking, but at the end of the day, if you don't put a report forward, you've had a lot of discussions but you haven't put anything forward to the government asking the government to do anything. So if we want to accomplish something, and I know you do—and the issue is, I think, appreciated by all of us and of interest to all of us—it will be the committee's decision as to which way you want to go.

I just think it's impossible for us to do both, and if we want to accomplish something, we need to pick one or the other—that is my suggestion—and it will be the will of the committee.

I have Mr. Stanton and Ms. Neville, and then Ms. Smith again.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's great to be back with my colleagues in this really thought-provoking committee, I must say. I've enjoyed the spring session and I find the subject matter to be of extreme interest.

I share the view that option one on the economic security issues is the route we should follow. And I appreciate that it is going to be very difficult to fit all of the subject matter into this fall session.

Before Madame Mourani made some good comments with respect to the trafficking issue, I was going to suggest on the economic side of things that while we had good presentations on the issue of child care--and that was one of our meetings, I noticed, to be enveloped into that one segment--the topics around immigrant women and housing might be better in that slot, considering we've already covered some ground in that area. I would agree, for example, that there is a strong emphasis on senior women here when in fact economic security issues cut across the spectrum. That's a suggestion, perhaps, if we're pressed for time.

On the issue of trafficking--and again this picks up on some of the themes that we really didn't get into too much in the spring around violence against women--perhaps if we can deal with only one subject matter, we should concentrate on that and try to develop a strong report. We delved into the violence issue somewhat in the spring session, but this would give us a little bit more time to get in-depth. The economic security topics could then be pushed off.

I like the work plan, but I get the point that it's going to be difficult. We know that we have ended up with meeting cancellations. Given the breadth of witnesses and the ability to get witnesses scheduled, I know it can be difficult. On the other hand, if we don't have enough, that doesn't preclude the possibility of bringing in witnesses on economic security issues as well. In other words, we'd still be advancing that topic through the fall session when we can, but we'd put our objective and set our sights on a strong report on that one topic, on human trafficking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm not quite sure I followed your argument, Mr. Stanton,--

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It wouldn't be the first time.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

--where you were going with it.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I looked at the work plan and I thought it was a good one. I would like to very much proceed on the whole question of economic security for senior women.

We talk about the issue of human trafficking, and when we talk about a study on that, I'm not quite sure what it's encompassing, whether it's encompassing the international trafficking of women, whether it's encompassing the trafficking of women from a certain region of the world, or whether we're looking at it on a worldwide basis, because it is a far-reaching topic, as we all know.

Maria Minna made the comment that women traffic because they're poor and they enter into sexual activity for dollars because they're poor and have no other resources.

I always come back to somebody who was in my office about a year and a half ago who was involved in a status of women organization in Vancouver, and it has stayed with me because she said when she now looks out her window she sees 70-year-old women on the street. And why are 70-year-old women on the street? It is because they have no other way of gaining income, either through public programs or through their own inability to enter the workforce; we don't know what their histories are.

When I looked at this plan I was struck by the absence of aboriginal women in the plan, but I also think back to that visit we had in my office, and I think of the women who are on the street in the city of Winnipeg, women who are struggling to have educational opportunities, to find opportunities for economic security for themselves, for their children, for their families. It strikes me that the underpinnings of all of it is economic security so that women, whatever country they live in--and my focus right now is on Canada--don't have to go on the street.

I would strongly urge the committee to look at the whole issue of economic security and let's make some strong recommendations.

I notice that Ms. Mathyssen has put forward a potential motion for a subcommittee on human trafficking. I realize that it's extra work for the researchers and it creates double duty for some members of the committee who would choose to go on the committee, but let's deal with that on a parallel bar.

Define the parameters of it. Are we going worldwide or are we looking at Winnipeg or Canada? Are we looking at parameters that are manageable, but always recognizing that the only reason or the primary reason that women are in prostitution or that women traffic is because they have no alternative for any kind of economic security for themselves and/or their families?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I was very interested in what Ms. Mourani had to say. I believe she is correct.

Listening to the comments around the table, I can see from Ms. Neville and from others at the table that we need to do much more study on human trafficking so people understand what it's all about.

We are a global community, so people, as we know, are trafficked from abroad into Canada. It becomes a Canadian issue. I think this is an issue that people know little about and I think it merits full attention on our full committee, not in a subcommittee. There are two RCMP officers in charge of the human trafficking here in Ottawa. They have put together a new video for the training of RCMP officers and I think we need to get them in to explain what human trafficking is about.

I know we have many of these other issues that are so important as well and we should not let them go, because the economic issues for all women are extremely important. But I do think we should start first with human trafficking, because I do think there is a lack of knowledge about what's going on in Canada. We need to get the people in to really have the status of women committee standing up for the rights and the respect of women and children.

Most trafficking is done with very young girls, and I think we have a responsibility, as the status of women committee, to do that. So to start with human trafficking I think is very appropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to basically reiterate and support what we heard from Ms. Minna and Ms. Neville.

I think it comes back to rights and respect for women. Those are very clearly lacking when we have societal attitudes that allow women to be economically disadvantaged. It's very important, I think, that we begin the discussion around economic security. I know we're all very concerned about the issue of trafficking--this committee has indicated that--and because we're concerned, I think we need to give it a proper amount of time. It will require a great many witnesses, a great deal of testimony, and extensive consideration. It may also require travel. I know that a previous committee, a justice committee, did a great deal of work, and it involved witness protection. It involved extraordinary measures in order to allow full testimony to be heard.

To me, 16 meetings doesn't seem to be adequate time for that kind of work. Certainly when you include our concerns about economic security, we simply don't have that kind of time. I'd like to do a really good job with one, and I can't see us doing a good job if we attempt to do too much.

So I would say let's begin with economic security, which is the basis of that respect for the rights of women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back to the discussion a little bit. I was listening to Mr. Stanton earlier about the importance of finishing one good piece. The difficulty I'm having with the discussion, though, is that, as Ms. Smith has also mentioned, there are the rights of children and protecting the rights of children.... There's no question that there are more affected children. I was dealing with many when I was involved as minister for CIDA, and I've seen it around the world. There are exotic dancers who come into Canada and they end up doing other things besides dancing--we know that--but why do they come? They're desperate for money. Why is there trafficking of children in Africa?

First of all, are we talking about just Canada or are we talking about the world? Whether it's in Canada or outside of Canada, it's money that buys the children, it's money that buys the young girls. It's money. If there were security in the homes of those little girls, and maybe boys and other females, they wouldn't be able to buy them.

Dire poverty and people who live on the edge is what's causing and is what's affecting the situation. Women are the poorest people in Canada, we know that. Whether they're aboriginal women or they're immigrant women or they're other women in different parts of the country, they are the poorest people of our country. To some degree, the system is set up to keep them there.

Why are they still making only 70 cents of the dollar that men make, even when they have university degrees, the same as their fellow men? Why is it that the EI system, our system, still excludes most women, and they can't qualify? We were supposed to review that, and we still haven't done it. It's a piece that needs to be looked at. Why is it that pensions...? The very life that women lead keeps them in poverty because they are not able to participate.

I met a woman, a senior woman, who just a week ago came to my office because she and her husband were not quite separated, he just left and went off with a younger woman a year before. Unfortunately for her, he died, and the law says that the last person he lived with, common law, gets to inherit his CPP--after 32 years of raising his children. Can we get serious here about women?

This is a diversion. If we don't deal with the core issue of women, which is economic, we cannot save them from the traffickers--we cannot. How can we take elderly women out of poverty and deal with that? Can we not deal with the core issues here, which address women's instability and their lives and their poverty, their dire poverty? Because that's at the core of why they're trafficked, of why they get into prostitution, or why they end up wherever.

There's another great example here. I hope that my colleague, Ms. Mathyssen, will not be offended, but I'm going to use one of her colleagues, the most recent NDP member of the legislature in Ontario, who was a street child, a street kid, as an example. She eventually bailed herself out of that, eventually got an education, and now is a legislator. Was she lucky? Maybe there was some help along the way--and Ms. Mathyssen might know her story better than I do--but it's one very glaring example of somebody who survived and managed to get out. Why can we not help the others to get out instead of studying trafficking? Get at the core of what causes the poverty. Why is the system holding them back? Let's deal with it. That is where it's at and that's where I think....

I get passionate because I've been dealing with women's issues now for 35 years. The issue on the table is the same every time, year after year. I'm going to retire, and I'll be old and dead long before we deal with the core issue of why women are trafficked, why women are in prostitution, why women are poor. Let's deal with it. At least let's give it a try and have a report before the end of the session. Let's say this is what we stand for, and we are trying.

If we deal with only trafficking, which is a small slice of the real issue--an important slice, no question at all--we will not address the real issue, and again we will be diverted to something that is really nice and sexy. It's high-profile, it will get attention and what have you, but it won't address the core problem--it won't.

Madam Chair, as you can see I am extremely passionate about this because I've been at it at this table for far too many years, and I've seen the same issues come and go. And at the end of the day, if we don't address the core issues we really have failed the women and the children of this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Ms. Minna addressed much of which I was going to reiterate. I guess what I'm struck by is when we began this committee--and not everybody was here, but some of us were--we began a broad-based consultation with women across this country from coast to coast to coast to try to determine what their primary issues were, what were the issues that they felt needed addressing by the Parliament of Canada. It was the first time that there had been a full Standing Committee on the Status of Women to address the issues that were particular to women in this country. And overwhelmingly we heard about the issues of poverty, single parenthood, providing supports for families and children, the struggles to get into the workforce, and the struggles of violence in the street. Perhaps the issue of trafficking came up, but if it did it was certainly not memorable in its quantity and urgency. And suddenly, out of right field, we have a proposal for a study on trafficking of humans. I don't want to diminish the importance of it; it is important. But what is really important are the issues of women in this country, women who are struggling to get an education, women who are struggling to make a better life for themselves and their families, and women who are struggling in their senior years to live with some dignity and some hope and optimism.

I had one of my colleagues ask me, when we were talking about this, are you forgetting the women of the inner city, who we know are struggling to make a life for themselves, in order to deal with the international issue of trafficking of women as a priority? And I just urge colleagues to look at why we're here--the opportunities that we provide for women in this country--and to address the issues that are front and centre in the minds of most women in Canada.

I'm just astounded that at this time and place, with the opportunities we have, that we will not put first and foremost the needs and hopes that women in Canada have put in the activities of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Stronach.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much.

The danger here is if we're spread too thin we will not accomplish anything. If we don't address the economic security of women, we will never break the cycle. If we don't empower women economically to make the choices that are best for them, then they won't have equality either. It's about equality as well: 70 cents of every dollar earned, as my colleague mentioned, compared to what a man earns; two-thirds of all single-parent family households are headed up by women; I believe about 68% of part-time workers are women. How can we ignore 52% of the population? We have to break the cycle. We have to accomplish something in this committee.

The other issue is also a very serious issue and should be addressed. I think the motion that Irene Mathyssen put forward, in which we run a parallel process, will allow us to accomplish both. But unless we address economic security we will never have equality and we'll never break the cycle. It's as simple as that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have Ms. Davidson and Maria Mourani.

Ms. Davidson, you haven't spoken at all yet, so I will make a suggestion after.

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I just want to say that I think the work plan as presented to us is very good. We have two issues here that are vitally important to all women in this country. I think the staff have done a really great job in putting this together.

I agree with the comments that have been made from the other side about housing, immigrant women, women in traditional roles, and aboriginal women, and I think there are other things we can look at as well. I also agree that I don't think we're going to be able to do both in 20 meetings.

The issue of trafficking in persons is extremely important as well. This issue isn't caused only by poverty. To say that this is the only reason for trafficking in persons shows a very huge lack of understanding of the issue.

The only time I took offence to anything this morning was when I heard trafficking in persons referred to as making a nice and sexy study. I think it's anything but. For someone to have said that, it's extremely appalling; I just cannot understand how anybody could make that comment.

The other thing I would like to say, Madam Chair, is that we've spent the first hour of this committee discussing this. We've had a good discussion. A lot of issues were brought out that needed to be brought out. My suggestion is that you ask that we decide and vote on which one we're going to do. Then we can spend the next hour determining who the witnesses will be and what the work plan will be.