Status of Women Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I understand that.

[Yvon Dandurand]

That's what I meant by the implementation of the act. Who is out there telling municipal police forces about this new legislation and what it means to them and that kind of thing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Do I have a few more minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Your time is up already, and a little bit more. We'll try to see if we can keep these rounds going so you get another opportunity.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a number of questions. One of them pertains to something you said with regard to the need for support within civil society for the victims of trafficking. I wanted to look at it in two ways.

First, for the women who are trafficked into the country, I know there are some measures in place. This spring the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration announced new measures to help those victims: 120 days for recovery and counselling and medical support. I'm thinking beyond that. I'm thinking to the reality of those women being victimized and brought into the country. I'm wondering, if we had lived up to our international obligations in regard to foreign assistance, the kinds of commitments that we've made year after year and not lived up to, would that have prevented some of this trafficking of women into the country?

[Yvon Dandurand]

I think it would have if we had been successful. It's a tall order for Canadians to try to abolish poverty around the planet on our own. We should do more, and what we're doing is already important. But we should do more to do this. If we want to take measures to prevent human trafficking, in particular, we need to be a little more targeted in our interventions and work closely with authorities in other countries.

I gave the example earlier of recruitment agencies, travel agencies. There are all kinds of other people we could regulate, work with, to make sure they don't provide opportunities for criminals to exploit unsuspecting individuals.

I would say that more targeted interventions and cooperation with other countries would probably be more effective in the short term.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I'm thinking, too, about women here in Canada. As was pointed out, there are women who are innocently duped into entering a career they think is going to be positive, only to find out it's not. In that regard, I'm thinking in terms of the kinds of social programs we need to have in place. You made reference to victim support services, but if we had better social programs in terms of dealing with poverty among women and really looked at the importance of economic security among women, would that go a long way towards addressing this trap that women find themselves in--the poverty trap that leads them into exploitive life situations?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

I think it most definitely would. The biggest problem is that the women need money, and they're going to do what they can to get it. Being self-sufficient, getting job training, getting extra schooling, or anything like that would be beneficial, just to get them on their feet and proud of themselves for what they're doing.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

There's been a great deal of discussion about Status of Women Canada and the role that agency plays in terms of the lives, the quality of life, and the hope of improving quality of life for women in Canada.

As an agency, a committee of government, do they have a clear role to play, from your perspective, in addressing this?

[Yvon Dandurand]

We mentioned earlier the need for research. Certainly some of the early research in Canada was commissioned and supported by Status of Women Canada. Someone needs to provide leadership at the national level, so there needs to be a focal point, and that focal point cannot be just a law enforcement focal point. There needs to be a law enforcement focal point, but there also needs to be a broader focal point--someone who will provide the leadership, both in terms of federal-provincial discussions and also in terms of mobilizing NGOs and others in civil society to see that the problem is understood and that we develop a common understanding of what we can do together.

I don't have a view on whether it should be Status of Women Canada, but there needs to be a focal point, and for the longest time part of that focal point was Status of Women Canada.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, so there needs to be that leadership to bring all these pieces together.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You still have two minutes and thirteen seconds left.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Well, I did have a rather long question, and it had to do with the victims of trafficking.

I know the RCMP's policy is to reach out to help them and to make every effort, but I wondered, because the notes indicate that some of these women are returned to their own countries.... What happens to them once they've been deported, once they've been returned home? Do we have any way of finding out? Do they simply end up in the same situation again, or is there some kind of support?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

In an RCMP investigation, a woman is returned home because she wanted to be returned home. That's the reason. If we were doing an investigation, we need her here as a witness, so we wouldn't just decide we're going to send her back or deport her. As I said, she'd go back because she wanted to go back.

Before she was sent back, we would ensure that our international liaison officer in that area was aware of it. He would either greet her at the airport or have the law enforcement of the country greet her at the airport, and they would contact the local authorities there ahead of time to ensure that this person would not be retrafficked and would not be prosecuted for what she did in Canada.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. I assume a certain level of protection would be offered once they returned home, in the event that the perpetrators were less than enthralled with the actions of these women in coming forward.

[Yvon Dandurand]

There's a whole range of responses. What Sergeant Lowe has described as RCMP policy is very important. It's costly and difficult to achieve, because it relies on having good relationships with other countries. That is because the protection in another country is not going to be offered by the RCMP; it's going to be offered locally. If you look at the rest of the planet, there's a whole range. There are documented cases of victims returning to Myanmar who were given cyanide at the border because they had contracted HIV/AIDS. There are victims returning to Canada from other countries who receive all kinds of assistance and help and protection.

So there's a whole range of things, but repatriation is a very sensitive part of our response. It's a difficult one. It's one that only works with good cooperation with other countries, and in many countries there are no services available, so you can have all the agreements you want with that country.... Basically, people have to rely on the little there is when they go back, in terms of medical services or in terms of whatever other services are available. It's a complicated issue, again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Could I take a moment to acknowledge the two visiting intern students from the Ukraine who are with us this morning? Nick Pekh and Julie Bura are somewhere in the room this morning, if they could stand for one second.

Welcome. We hope you had an interesting learning experience.

For the record, I would correct Ms. Mourani's comment about there being a program for entertainers and artists. A temporary resident permit is issued at the discretion of the minister or at the discretion of the department on humanitarian, compassionate, or exceptional grounds, or there has to be some rationale behind it. But it is not a program that issues permits under that category. I only want to make sure we are clarified for the blues on that.

We'll now enter into a five-minute round of questions and answers.

Ms. Stronach.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for your presentation to us this morning.

You've talked a lot about the need for better coordination and better international cooperation. What about as it relates to Canada? Is there better coordination among the various levels of government? Perhaps you can talk a little about what we can do here at home to make progress in this area.

I have a few questions, but that's my first one.

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

We have the federal interdepartmental working group on trafficking and persons that coordinates federal efforts. Province by province, they're developing regional committees to bring NGOs together with law enforcement and other provincial agencies.

Those are the biggest steps that we're taking right now to make sure things are coordinated.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. I represent a community within the York region. We've had some discussion on this topic with our local police, and we've found that in the southern end of the region, with the body rub houses, they've made it a priority to deal with that issue.

We've also asked about the resources that are available for the victims. We've had a hard time finding any resources that are available for those victims, and the police don't offer much in support of the victims. Is there a comment you can make?

I know you've already talked a lot about the need to support victims, but perhaps you can talk a little bit about that.

[Yvon Dandurand]

I would make two quick comments in response to your question.

One is that you'd be hard pressed to find an organization trying to work with victims of human trafficking or helping them come forward that does not have serious resource issues. Of course, all of those organizations are constantly looking for resources, but right now it's at a very critical stage.

In the few cases that have come forward, special measures have had to be put together, either by the RCMP or others, to deal with the immediate needs, but that's not sustainable. At one point there needs to be a network of services available for rapid response.

Luckily, we haven't had any major cases involving numerous victims recently, but it can happen. We can have another container full of victims or you can have a dozen children showing up one day at the border or somewhere. All of a sudden, we require a special effort to be made, and we're not there, and the services are not there.

On the cooperation issue, I think the experience in which I had an opportunity to participate in British Columbia shows that it's not only agreeing to work together. It's very complex and it's very delicate. There are all kinds of things to be looked at, such as privacy, security of victims, and so on.

It calls for very detailed agreements, protocol, and inter-agency protocol. Certainly, in British Columbia, it took them at least a year to come to a common understanding of who was going to do what, at what time, with whose cooperation, and so on. Of course, in order to develop those agreements, you need commitment and you need resources. Resources are a major issue.

We haven't had large cases, but we should be prepared for that, because it is a pattern. Oftentimes, when you find one victim, you find ten, fifteen, or twenty. It's a pattern. No criminal organization deals in one victim. If there is one victim, there are others. The question is, where do you find the others? Then all of a sudden you have an immediate need for a lot of services for a group of victims.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have one minute left, Ms. Stronach.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

My other question would be this. Are there any figures on the number of women abroad who are victims of trafficking and have been returned to their countries of origin? Do we have any statistics available on that?