Status of Women Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[Yvon Dandurand]

No, we don't.

We haven't mentioned this, but in many countries they have a problem with revictimization. Unfortunately, many victims are victims more than once. After repatriation they're not protected, so they're basically exploited again. There's actually the fear sometimes that if you're too effective in returning victims, you're just creating new business for the criminal organization. You keep sending back the person they can sell once, twice, three times.

I don't want to sound alarmist, but there are cases, documented cases, where that has happened.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

I have two questions and only five minutes, so I'll try to capsulize as best I can.

Briefly, can you give me a profile of the victims of these crimes? From where in the world are they coming, generally? Is it other countries, or parts of Canada here? And are these victims coming from abject poverty or from mainstream society, falling into a trap of this type?

Could you speak to that, Sergeant Lowe?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

Sure. I can provide you with some of the countries of victims that we're dealing with now, or have dealt with in the past, and perhaps Mr. Dandurand can speak more to the profile.

The places are Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Korea, Africa, and eastern Europe. In the cases I'm familiar with, young women who come over here believing they're going to be doing such jobs as waitressing are really put into the sex industry. They have no idea until they get over here what they're up for. They have no idea. Once they get into it, they can't believe it. They can't escape.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

So they're not necessarily coming from economically deprived conditions. They might just see this as a way to broaden their careers, or see it as the excitement of going to and working in another country. Would that be correct?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

In most of the cases that I'm familiar with, these are women who are coming to work because they need the money for themselves and for their families. So for a lot of these girls, they want to leave, but if they do, their families will suffer for it.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

It's employment.

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

Definitely.

[Yvon Dandurand]

All of that is true, but it's true because this is where we look.

There is also the victim of trafficking who comes because they think they're going to get an education. They're coming here, they think, to go to college, and the next thing they know, they're being exploited, sexually or otherwise.

There is the victim who is fairly wealthy and who wants to become a supermodel, and who thinks this is the opportunity of a lifetime. Who doesn't want to become a supermodel?

There is the victim of trafficking who wants to be a superstar musician. They're offered the chance to come and work at a nightclub as a musician. They think this is their chance to make the American market. The next thing they know, they're working on the floor, not on the stage.

All of those things happen. There are patterns here. But the problem with patterns is that they're patterns of the cases we know. Even in the early stages of research on human trafficking, most researchers were focusing on establishing the routes. You must have seen those maps; everyone has them. They're maps of the world with arrows going in every direction.

The problem is that these are the directions from last year, or two years ago, or three years ago. These are the cases we know. If we say this year it's Korea, guess what? The guys will move from Myanmar. If we say it's Jamaica, the next thing you know it will be Honduras. If we say it's Honduras, it will be somewhere else.

Why is this? Because the criminals out there are organized, by definition, and one of their main objectives is to avoid detection. They take a lot of care to try to see what law enforcement is doing. Where are they looking this week? Through which airport is it easier to enter?

So it's all of those things; it's not a static phenomenon. Although it is important to try to get a profile of the victims we deal with now, we cannot be lulled into thinking that it's going to stay that way. It changes constantly.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I don't want to cut you off, but I have only a minute left.

With regard to Bill C-49, have there been any prosecutions on this so far?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

No prosecutions yet, no.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay.

You alluded to the fact that there are some major hurdles there in terms of spooling up law enforcement. Are there any initiatives in place right now that you can tell me about that are helping law enforcement agencies to be better aware of their obligations under Bill C-49?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

We are working with the Department of Justice to do training with law enforcement officers. We've started in Ottawa, and we'll be going out across Canada.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 55 seconds left.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Really? I'm doing better than I thought.

Finally, what would be your best advice to this committee about what we can do as we move towards preparation of a comprehensive report on this topic? From your point of view, what would be the very best outcome from this process over the next few months? What can this committee do to advance this issue for the benefit of our society and particularly for victims?

[Det Sgt Lori Lowe]

Continue to support the efforts of federal government agencies and continue to keep it high profile. Traffickers know when we're working on something; they're a step ahead of us. If we keep it high profile, that might make them more leery about getting involved in what they do. It's a long shot, but it's something to work towards.

[Yvon Dandurand]

I concur. I would add that you deal with the issue of resources and coordination with the provinces. So much of that is principally the responsibility of provinces: administration of justice, social services, child protection. You need to work closely with them. That is probably the priority, in addition to what was suggested.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay.

The Bloc, Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Dandurand, a little earlier, you said that in countries where prostitution is legal, a parallel market has developed all the same. So legalization does not provide all the answers.

Furthermore, I read that the average entry age in the world of prostitution is 14. Do you have the same data? I also read somewhere that the trafficking route is actually the slave route, like in the days of the black slave trade.

In conclusion, do you think that the municipalities should stop granting permits to escort agencies? With regard to the infamous temporary visa programs for artists and domestic workers, do you think that these programs amount to loopholes in our immigration system? Whether the visas are granted by the minister or not does not really matter, they exist. You will correct me if that is not so. Do you think that these are loopholes in our system?

[Yvon Dandurand]

You are raising several very complex questions. I think that the data you are quoting about the average age at which people go into prostitution are probably right. This is so, not only in Canada, but also elsewhere. It seems that the age is going down each year; they are being recruited at younger and younger ages. I think we have to put those questions aside. If we talk about children, there is no question of legalizing prostitution or approving or having temporary immigration permits. In any case, this is not the way to go. So we must beware of that.

Whether the victims of this type of exploitation are also victims of human trafficking or not is not really an important question. There are many ways of exploiting people, including children and women. Human trafficking is only one of the ways. Obviously we have to take other measures to protect people who are victims of various forms of exploitation, even if they are not victims of human trafficking.

That is why some stakeholders are going to tell you that we have to start by dealing with the question of prostitution, etc. We have to take care of all these questions. If we begin to mix them all up and make a single problem of them, that will complicate things instead of helping us to develop practical strategies. A certain number of measures should be taken with a view to protecting Canadian women and children from sexual exploitation. Actually that has nothing to do with human trafficking. Other measures have to be taken to deal with human trafficking. You referred to programs or practices. Perhaps it would be fairer to talk about practices rather than programs. Such practices exist for other reasons, often praiseworthy and legitimate ones.

Sometimes these programs are diverted from their initial objectives by organized crime. It is very difficult not to create programs that are not at some point completely diverted by organized crime. You will often be told, for example, that everything that can be done to make life easier for victims—including temporary residence permits—can be used by organized crime gangs. Someone who belongs to a group of traffickers can tell the victims that, since Canada is a tolerant country that respects human rights, they just have to give him $10,000 and he will organize their entry into Canada. As soon as they get here, still according to the trafficker, all they have to do is declare themselves victims to get a temporary residence permit and have access to medical services, etc. All the measures taken to protect victims can be used against them by members of organized crime.

But that should not prevent us from adopting measures to protect victims. We should know that every time we make a move, as Sergeant Lowe said, organized crime does not remain passive; it finds ways of countering our measures or undoing what we are trying to achieve.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I was told that when...

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mourani, I'm sorry but you have five seconds left.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I was told that, when victims were detected, they were deported. Do you not think that we should grant such people permanent residence instead?