Status of Women Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Diane Matte]

I think it was somebody from the Native Women's Association of Canada who spoke about factors that make women vulnerable. It is obvious that in many countries around the world, neo-liberal globalization has caused impoverishment, particularly among women. This of course is one of the reasons why more and more of them have to leave their country.

For example, it is interesting to see that in Africa, migration has changed completely. Before, it was mainly young men who left their country to find a better life elsewhere. Now it is mainly women who are leaving. To improve their own circumstances and, very often, those of their family, they are regularly forced to use their body. Their own survival and the survival of their family depends on it. In many instances, there is a risk that they will come into contact with trafficking networks.

With respect to militarization, we saw how in Afghanistan, the bombing and the war led to an immense amount of poverty. What was left for people to do to earn money? Families sold their young daughters in Saudi Arabia, where people had enough money to buy the bodies of little girls. The same thing is happening in Iraq at the moment: a great many women, simply to survive, end up in prostitution networks that operate all around the world. I think that the problem exists in Iraq itself.

Equality between men and women also needs to be discussed. Women want to be models at the age of 13 or 14 not because it is in their genes, but because that is what society offers them as an opportunity. It does not necessarily have anything to do with personal liberation. Women's bodies and beauty are prized as a tool for power or as a way of being loved. You need only think of the little girl I spoke to you about, who fell in love with a pimp.

In Quebec, networks of pimps and individuals who traffic in young women focus heavily on youth centres. These people attract young girls by holdingout the idea of an easy life, telling that they will be beautiful and that they will receive gifts. At the same time, they ask them to sleep with their friends. That is very often how these things begin. The girls agree to do so because they like the person who approached them. In some cases, they are not even aware that they are being used for the purpose of prostitution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have two minutes left, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ms. Wolski, the Departments of Justice and Foreign Affairs have co-chaired the Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons, and I wondered whether NWAC has been consulted by the working group or been asked to participate in other federal government activities relating to the trafficking of aboriginal women.

[Erin Wolski]

In fact, no, there's been no consultation with our organization; however, a call has been made to the committee that we'd like to become involved and we'd like to participate at the national level. I believe there are 17 departments that are involved with that committee.

We've made the request; however, we were denied. They said we could come in to give a presentation, but their policy is not to bring in organizations other than federal departments.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That's too bad. I would assume you have a great deal of expertise to share.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have one minute left.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Very quickly, Ms. Soltys, you mentioned the training for health care providers to recognize victims, and I didn't quite catch it all. Could you explain what the problem is, in terms of medical professionals not being properly informed?

[Irena Soltys]

It's not only medical professionals who are not being properly informed. It's legal professionals, judges, police officers, etc. We have to do a major awareness-raising campaign.

As you heard me read, trafficking victims are subject to physical abuse. AIDS has become rampant because women who are trafficked aren't given a choice of whether they can use a condom or not. Men will pay more for a trafficked woman if they're allowed not to use a condom. After the women have AIDS, they're discarded. Women can become impregnated, so there's a medical issue related to unwanted children. There are other medical issues, as in a case I heard of recently, where a woman was impregnated 15 times and the embryos were sold on the black market in eastern Europe to a cosmetics industry. There's a myriad of medical issues that a health care professional would not recognize.

It is our obligation to report abuse of women and abuse of children. At the bare minimum, medical professionals should be made aware that a woman could be trafficked. We now have a card where they can phone the immigration division of the RCMP and have their questions answered. The two health care professionals I work with have lectured on the issue. They've written papers to the Canadian Medical Association Journal. We do have the personnel in this country to begin this education.

We did make contact with the interdepartmental working group on trafficking, and I'm sorry to say, it was, “Don't call us, we'll call you.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Stronach. This is now five minutes.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for being here today.

I think I can speak for my colleagues in saying that we all found your presentations extremely useful. This is such a devastating subject matter. We have many questions and we need to focus on what the solutions are. You do such great advocacy work, and I want to make sure you're able to continue doing that great advocacy work, because there's still a way we must go.

Because you do that advocacy work, do you have any concerns regarding the government's policy within the Status of Women to eliminate the capacity to do that advocacy work? I'd like to understand if that will impact the work you're doing. Do you receive any federal moneys for your organization now?

[Erin Wolski]

That's an excellent question.

It's quite a concern, actually, that the Status of Women was cut by 48% of their core budget. The trickle-down effect is disturbing. I think it's important that that be put out there.

With regard to other legislation or issues that have been tabled by Parliament, in the example of the elimination of the court challenges program, that directly affects our advocacy work as well. We have no mechanism at this point to challenge any court decisions that come down.

I did read recently in the media with regard to advocacy that women's groups will be disallowed from using federal funds to advocate. This is definitely going to directly affect our ability to bring these issues to tables such as this. It's very disturbing and threatening. We're well aware that this is happening. We're trying our best to advocate and take a collaborative approach with other women's organizations in Canada--from the legal perspective as well as others--to say that this is not right.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

My next question may seem like a simple one, but I think it's one that certainly my colleagues, and some on the committee, are struggling to answer, because we want to make sure we address the right priorities and get this report written on a very timely basis.

Could you help us define what human trafficking is? It seems like a very basic question, but it's one the committee is wrestling with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Maybe Ms. Matte, being a university professor....

[Diane Matte]

There are different definitions of sex trafficking. The definition given in the Palermo Protocol, more specifically with respect to taking a person from one location to another or from one country to another by using stratagems such as coercion or deceit, which victimizes people.

As part of its work, the sex trafficking research group has become aware that even this definition, when it comes to applying it, has quite a few limitations. Indeed, how can one determine whether there has been deceit, for example? It is not obvious. We know that in cases of international trafficking, at least, the women involved wanted more than anything else to leave their country and found themselves in a situation in which they were illegal immigrants. This obviously does not encourage them to inform on their traffickers, because that would advertise the fact that they themselves are here illegally.

It is very complex. In any definition of sex trafficking, the concept of exploitation needs to play a much bigger role.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Merci.

Very quickly, Ms. Soltys.

[Irena Soltys]

We need to clarify smuggling and trafficking in this context. People can be smuggled into the country illegally and then they can be trafficked within this country. They can be brought in illegally as well, so we need to be aware of those two differences.

But I refer to this RCMP card, because it breaks it down into a very easy definition, how to determine if a person is being trafficked. Are they doing the work being paid for? Are they being forced or pressured to work? Do they have their papers or travel documents? Are they or their loved ones being threatened in any way, and are they free to pick up and leave at any time? This captures the essence of a trafficked person.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The analysts would very much appreciate that additional help.

Mr. Fast, welcome to our committee this morning.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you. It's certainly a privilege to be here and to listen to this discussion. I want to thank all of you for coming. By way of clarification, since we've had some comments regarding the age of consent and the current law, if a 50-year-old has sexual relations with a 14-year-old and that 50-year-old is charged criminally, typically, legal counsel for the perpetrator will use consent as a defence. If that defence is made--and often it is because the child is on the stand--defence counsel grills the child. Eventually there is an admission that there was consent, and the perpetrator goes scot-free. The age of protection legislation will remove the defence of consent. So in that sense, it would make it illegal.

My first question is to Ms. Soltys. Addressing the issue of trafficking again, not only within Canada but in Ukraine, I'm curious, are you aware of the degree, if any, to which Russian organized crime or perhaps eastern bloc organized crime is involved in the trafficking of children, both in Canada and in eastern Europe?

[Irena Soltys]

It's a big issue, because Russian organized crime and other crime rings, the Yakuza, the triads, etc., are all heavily involved in human trafficking. The Hells Angels are the major operators in Canada, and I could be risking my life by saying this.

My knowledge of the issue in Ukraine and Russia stems from our contact with the International Organization for Migration office for eastern Europe. Mr. Frederick Larson is our contact person there. I don't have statistics in front of me. But, for example, I'll take their Kiev office. Their rehabilitation centre treats over 1,000 women a year. These are only the cases that have been reported, and this is one centre in one city, so you can imagine how widespread the problem is. It's estimated that currently over 40,000 women from Ukraine are trafficked. Imagine. That's the population of a small city, potentially.

The problem is very widespread, as it would be from any country that is economically struggling, going through a changeover into a democracy. A lot of Romanian women are trafficked into this country. The RCMP would probably corroborate those statistics. I know of cases of Ukrainian women as well.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I admire your courage.

I have a question perhaps for Ms. Jean or Ms. Matte.

In your presentation, you would refer to the fact that you are abolitionists. I assume what you're referring to is abolishing this distinction between trafficking and prostitution. Is that correct?

[Diane Matte]

In fact, what is involved is banning the institution of prostitution.

It goes without saying that this means not making a distinction between trafficking for the purpose of prostitution and prostitution itself. The term "abolitionist" is used in that sense. We do not believe that prostitution has always existed, that it is a trade like any other and that there is nothing you can do about it. We do not accept fate, any more than we accept fate as a reason for the existence of violence against women or fate as an explanation for the inequality between men and women.

Since I have the floor, I will speak about the issue of consent. When one talks about the definition of the expression "sex trafficking", it is very important to note that consent must not be a factor in determining whether a person is a victim or not. This is a very important issue.

No matter what the age of the victim, men always use the fact that women consented to sex in order to protect themselves from the charges against them. It is clear that the question of consent must not be included in our definition. Whether or not there was consent ought not to have an influence on determining whether a woman was a victim of trafficking or not. Otherwise, we would be requiring women to prove that they are victims. Traffickers, like rapists and men who want to abuse their power, will always claim that the woman was consenting. It's the oldest trick in the book.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Sorry, time is up.

Mr. Ménard or Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am happy that you raised the question of consent. I do not believe that there is a relationship between consent and human trafficking or prostitution generally.

I would like clarification. Some women say—I do not know whether they are in the minority or the majority—that they go into prostitution as a personal choice. Some groups, like the Stella group, fiercely demand the right to prostitution.

What do you think of that? Is prostitution really a right? Is it really an option?

On the other hand, people say that women do it to survive. There has been a great deal of discussion about this. It has been said that it is a matter of poverty, among other things. Are we not indirectly getting the message that it's a job like any other?

A person who crosses the border to work in a field on a farm—because the pay is higher in Canada than somewhere else—does so to survive. It's been said that when there is incredible poverty in a given country, these women cross the border, are lured and are victims of trafficking, which is very different from what they thought at the outset.

Is this line of argument contributing to this stream of thought—which Stella advocates—to the effect that it is an option, and that because they are poor, they chose to come here to engage in prostitution?

[Diane Matte]

I would make two distinctions. On the one hand, the right to engage in prostitution does not exist in any international human rights convention or charter. I think that what groups like Stella are demanding, and it is legitimate for them to do so, is the right to dignity and recognition as a separate person who has rights. From this stems the idea of supporting the decriminalization of women who engage in prostitution, as the Concertation des luttes contre l'exploitation sexuelle has been doing.

The problem is not that women engage in prostitution. The problem is that our society, which is based on patriarchal precepts, that is to say inequalities between men and women, present the institution of prostitution as something ordinary or as a trade like any other—particularly over the past 10, 15 or 20 years—whereas we know full well that this is far from being the case. I am certain that the women at Stella are aware of the extent to which women who currently engage in prostitution are more likely than anyone else to be raped, beaten, or victimized in one way or another. They think that the solution would be to legalize prostitution, because this would make these women nice little independent workers, and that this would liberate them.

Our perception is different. We feel that the institution of prostitution concerns not only the women who engage in it, because it is a barrier to equality between men and women. That being the case, prostitution needs to be considered differently. The question is not whether women who engage in prostitution individually feel good, but whether our society wants to develop or tolerate the existence of prostitution.

It is also a matter of survival. I don't know what other term to use. In any event, it is the reality of women here or elsewhere, unfortunately, because of inequalities between men and women. Very often, one way to be able to eat is indeed to prostitute oneself. At that point, I believe we are speaking of survival. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is a job like any other. It is rather a reality. I do not believe that our society should accept that the only possibility or the only option to escape from poverty or to be able to eat requires that part of the population must prostitute itself.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If I have understood what you are telling me correctly, a choice has been made.