Status of Women Committee on May 26th, 2009

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I certainly agree with that too, of course.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister.

There has been a request from the committee. The researchers have prepared a number of quite excellent questions, and unfortunately we weren't able to get to those questions. I believe you had a response to question three and question five. In addition to Mr. Wilfert's question, could you please respond to these in writing? The committee would appreciate that very much.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Sure.

Thanks very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you, and thank you for being here.

We're going to move into the next round, if the folks from Statistics Canada would please come forward.

Before we start, I believe Ms. Neville had a question she wished to ask.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I did, Madam Chair.

I neglected this, and others perhaps didn't think about it. We had asked the minister for information when she was here on February 12. We put forward a motion at committee asking for this information. Nothing is happening. I wonder whether, through you or perhaps through the parliamentary secretary, it could be conveyed to the minister that we're waiting for this information. It's many months later.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you, Ms. Neville. We will, through the clerk, put the question to the minister with regard to when we can expect that. You're quite right, we have been waiting and we do need that information.

Thank you very much to Statistics Canada. We welcome Ms. Bender, Ms. Badets, and Ms. Williams. Thank you for coming. You have ten minutes, and then we'll proceed to questions.

[Jane Badets, Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you. I'd like to thank the committee for inviting Statistics Canada here today to make a presentation from the data we collect on the labour market conditions of men and women in Canada.

I have with me my colleague Rosemary Bender, director general of the social and demographic statistics branch. I'm the director of the social and aboriginal statistics division of Statistics Canada. Also with us is Cara Williams, who is the chief of our social analysis and research section.

You have a presentation in front of you, and I'm going to walk you through it. I'll indicate which slide I'm on. We're going to show you some numbers and go carefully through them to provide you with some sense of those numbers.

First I will present information on the educational situation of men and women in Canada, as that's an important factor when we consider the labour market outcomes of women and men. Then I will present information on labour market trends for women and men in Canada over time. We particularly want to focus on average hourly wages of women and men, their employment situation in terms of employment rates and how they have changed over time, and their average earnings.

We'd be pleased to answer your questions at the end of the presentation.

The graph on page 3 shows the educational attainment of men and women as of the 2006 census. In terms of post-secondary education, a slightly higher proportion of women have university degrees and college certificates than men. On the other hand, men are more likely to have trade certificates.

The graph on page 4 shows the major fields of study of men and women post-secondary graduates, as of the 2006 census. As you can see, there are differences in the fields of study between men and women. Men were more likely to graduate from engineering, architecture, and applied sciences such as mathematics, computer sciences, and physical and life sciences than are women. On the other hand, women were more likely to be graduating from the health sciences, business management, public administration, education, and the social sciences, including law.

Fields of study have an impact on the types of occupations individuals work in and on their wages and earnings. Graph number 5 shows the average hourly wages for men and women working full-time over time, 1997 to 2008, regardless of their occupation. As you can see, the average hourly rates of both men and women have gradually increased over time, with men earning slightly more than women on average. In 1997, women working full-time earned an average of $14.86 per hour, and men earned around $18 per hour. In 2008, the average hourly earnings for women working full-time were almost $21 and for men $24. So the gap between men and women's average hourly wages has remained relatively the same over these 11 years.

The graph on page 6 shows how the average hourly wage ratio varies by certain occupations. Of course, at Statistics Canada we collect a vast amount of data on this, but I'm selecting a few occupations to provide an indication of some key trends. For the three occupations in this grouping, we can see that the female-to-male wage ratios have increased over the period. This means that the difference between average hourly wages of women and men has decreased.

For example, in the health-related occupations—that's the blue line on the graph—women earned 91% of what men earned in 1997. This has increased such that women's wages were about 4% higher than those of men in more recent years. In the natural and applied science occupations—that's the yellow line on the graph—women's average hourly earnings were 88% of those of their male counterparts, up from 85% in 1997. In business, finance, and administrative occupations—the red line on the graph—women's average hourly wages were 85% of those of men, and that's up from 83% in 1997.

The largest difference in hourly wages between women and men was in occupations related to primary industries, manufacturing, and processing, where women's average hourly wages were about 70% of those of men in 2008.

The graph on page 7 shows the employment rate of men and women over time, from 1976 to 2008. As you can see, women's employment rates have been steadily increasing since 1976, while men's employment rates have been decreasing slightly, gradually narrowing the gap between men's and women's employment rates over time.

In 2008, women's employment rate was 59%, compared with 67% for men. That's a difference of eight percentage points. In contrast, in 1976, that difference was about 31 percentage points. Women's employment rate was 42% in 1976, compared with 73% for men.

The graph on page 8 shows the part-time rate of women and men as a percentage of total employment. That's again over the same period of time, 1976 to 2008. While employment rates have increased for women, women are more likely to work part-time than men.

In 2008, for example, about a quarter, 26%, of employed women were working part-time, compared with 11% of men. There has been a decline since 1976 in the difference between men and women working part-time, mostly as a result of a higher proportion of men working part-time. Women were also more likely to work part-time for non-economic reasons; for example, for care of children. They were also more likely to be temporary employees—that is, employees with a fixed employment term—and on average to have fewer years of work experience than men, as they are more likely to take time away from the labour market for family formation and family responsibilities. All of these factors affect average earnings.

The final graph, on page 9, shows the female-to-male earnings ratio, which is the black line, calculated for all earners as well as for full-time, full year workers, which is the red line. The earning ratio illustrates how the difference between women's and men's earnings changes over time. Data show, and I've certainly spoken about this, that the labour market situation for women is different from that for men. For example, I've spoken about women being more likely to work part-time, to work fewer hours, to have on average fewer years of work experience, and being more likely to be working in certain types of occupations, such as retail and services, than men. All of these factors, and often they're interrelated, have an impact on average earnings of women relative to the earnings of men.

On average, women earn less than men, as can be seen by the graph; however the earnings ratio has increased since 1997, narrowing the gap between what women earned relative to men. Among full year, full-time workers, for example, women earned 68% of what men earned in 1997. By 2006, women working full year, full-time earned 72% of what men working full year, full-time earned.

That concludes my presentation. There have been some improvements in both female-to-male relative earnings and average hourly wages over time, but a gap still exists; there are differences still existing between women and men. There are a number of factors, and I've talked about them, that help explain these differences. For example, women are more likely than men to work fewer hours, to work part-time, and to have fewer years of work experience.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much. That was very efficient.

Now we'll go to Madame Zarac for seven minutes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you for your presentation. According to the figures, there are more women in the labour market and more women who are educated. Nevertheless, they still earn less than men do. Clearly, there is inequity.

Statistics Canada must examine the figures and do some analyses. I suppose that you have reached the same conclusion as me, that there is clearly inequity. The committee has examined the statistics and believes that indices should be added in order to better evaluate the situation.

You examine statistics regularly, but do you also look at the reasons for this inequity?

[Jane Badets]

As you've mentioned, it is a complex situation. There are many factors, and we pointed out some of them. We certainly have done a little bit more research in trying to understand the interrelationships of these different factors. For example, we know that women work in different types of occupations and in different types of industries. They're more likely to work part time and to work fewer hours. All of that is interrelated. We try to understand that and interaction of those factors, and the extent to which their interactions explain those differences.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I understand that it is highly complex, but clearly pay inequity is not, given the delays you just mentioned. While women work in different areas from men, the fact remains that there is not equal pay for work of equal value. The figures clearly show that.

Is Statistics Canada responsible for breaking down the figures to a larger extent? At the end of the day, you are giving us tools to find solutions. Your statistics are very important. They are tools for us.

[Rosemary Bender, Director General, Census Subject Matter, Social and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada]

Based on the statistics that we have, we can do a considerable amount of analysis in an attempt to explain the differences in pay. I think that we have covered the major reasons for that, statistically speaking, here this morning. It can be explained for the most part because of the overall difference there is between salaries received by men and women.

Apart from that, we provide data to analysts outside Statistics Canada, to decision-makers and to researchers in the public arena, so that they can use the statistics to try and understand and better explain the factors beyond the statistics.

Our role is to clearly define the statistics and the reasons that may explain the differences from an analytical perspective based on the characteristics that we measure. We leave the rest to the users of the data and to leaders in the public arena.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I understand that statistics should be based on a sufficiently long period of time, but is there a procedure that we must follow to add new indicators? What would be the process to follow in cases where researchers or analysts want you to make some additions?

Let me repeat myself: this is really important. Obviously, your reports show that there is inequity. We must work harder to find solutions.

What is your procedure? Would you be favourable to adding indicators? If so, what process should be followed to do this?

[Rosemary Bender]

We are able to carry out studies over time, and we carry them out. We make repeated investigations, such as social investigations or the census. With that information, we can see how things evolve and see whether the difference between men and women is decreasing or increasing. We can also see the specific fields in which important improvements or changes are happening. We can do this, not only on an ad hoc basis, but also over time.

Moreover, thanks to consultation with data users, we can, through our investigations, try to add more questions or to obtain information that could perhaps add something to our knowledge of the obstacles to employment or on experiences, or what have you.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

You mentioned seasonal users. This is important, because we can interpret figures almost at will.

Do you have the capability of working with data users?

[Rosemary Bender]

First, we work very closely with the users when we define our statistical programs. We define the questions and we define what we will measure, and we do this in close collaboration with the main users of our data. Once this is done, we publish our data.

After that, we also work together with the users to make sure that they clearly understand the scope of our data and that they adequately interpret the concepts and data definitions that we provide.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Beside the understanding of the concepts, do you give your approval to the reports that they produce?

[Rosemary Bender]

We distribute the data as we collect it. Afterward, it is up to the users to use the data in their own way.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Sometimes it is a little bit dangerous because, as I said before, figures can be interpreted at will.

[Rosemary Bender]

We really make sure that the data is available for all users, with a good understanding of the concepts and the definitions. This gives everyone access to data. This data is not accompanied with interpretation, these are statistics, facts that we have gathered, and that we publish and share with all the users who want to utilize them to really understand the situation. Thus, there is no interpretation as such, it basically consists of data and statistics.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Mr. Guimond.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Vice-Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies. Thank you for your very interesting presentation. I can confirm that your studies are accurate. I am the father of three school girls. They have good potential and they should attain very high levels of education. Thus, your study confirms what is happening in my family, and I am very proud of it.

Quite a few MPs and quite a few people from the rest of Canada find that we, Quebeckers, are irritating, because we are different from other Canadians in many respects. You stated in your studies that employment income increased in Quebec due to the pay equity regulations that we have implemented, especially in the public sector, since 2006.

In your opinion, what was the impact of the pay equity regulations on the overall economy in Quebec?

[Jane Badets]

I have to say that we have not looked into that. Perhaps other parts of Statistics Canada have looked into it, but we don't have that information on hand with us today.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Perhaps I could ask you another question in the same vein. What advances have women made on the job market due to the fact that they have a higher level of education? What concrete advancement have they made due to the fact that they have a better education?

[Jane Badets]

We certainly know that in some of the professional occupations, such as health, business, and finance, there have been gains in terms of hourly wages. That's shown on slide 6. We certainly know that the higher the level of education, the higher the employment rate is among women. There have been gains, and we see those over time.