Status of Women Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[René Barrette]

There needs to be a more systematic approach developed with employers, somewhat like the European model. The apprenticeship system is an alternating work-study system. That requires industry to go to great lengths from an organizational standpoint in order to open its doors at the same time as training is going on. It is a tried and true system, just look at Finland and Switzerland. There is also a better job retention rate among graduates of vocational training than we have seen in Quebec and Canada for a good many years. The answer might be to try and have a far more efficient partnership with employers in the construction sector by promoting work and study simultaneously, a systematic, alternating, work-study system.

Departments of education would need to review the apprenticeship system and offer an on-the-job component to complement the in-class curriculum. These two worlds can be reconciled. There is an increasing dialogue between the two. In my opinion, we should look into that kind of solution.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Smillie was talking about the fact that there is less and less training for students in terms of the trades, because it's expensive, and I know, I came from the high school system and the shops are very, very expensive. And yet you've set up this mini-laboratory, and you've indicated quite considerable success. Is it simply a matter of making this kind of education a priority?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Mathyssen, I would ask that whoever answers that question be very, very brief. You've drifted over. I've allowed it because everybody else has been allowed to drift over.

[Sylvie Émond]

I can tell you at the Commission scolaire de Laval, we are always looking to branch out. Vocational training is a large component of our programs. We are spoiled and it is clear that we are always trying to improve ourselves, to be proactive by wanting the best facilities that meet employers' standards and to make it possible for girls to succeed and to meet the demand. That is my answer to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Madame Émond.

The second round is beginning, and it's a five-minute round. It means five minutes for questions and for answers. I allow a little leeway, because sometimes you don't want to stop somebody in the middle of an answer. So I do let you drift a bit, but not too much.

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Smillie.

Mr. Smillie, you talked about a lot of challenges, for both men and women. We know that the percentage of female single-parent families is higher than male single-parent families. So I imagine that these challenges are even greater for women.

We know that in the future, there will be a shortage of workers, and that is why it is important to convince more people, both women and men, to turn to the construction sector where there are already shortages.

You referred to a pilot project with the government. Could you tell us more about that? What is your perception of the work that could be done with the government?

[Christopher Smillie]

I think this committee has sort of set the stage to examine the issue in greater light.

In terms of a pilot program, our organization and our contractor partners out there would be absolutely willing to get as much information as possible. We talked a lot about getting information to young people. Something that I see we can do together with the government side is working through our sector council, getting information to high schools, getting information to the various parties that would be interested. Even though we're in a very serious economic time in our industry, we're still very, very busy, so the demand for skilled workers hasn't really dropped off yet. We're crossing our fingers that it won't. Generally, we'll be in a shortage position in the next five to ten years again. There was something that came out that said we need an additional 200,000 to 300,000 skilled trade workers in this country.

What do I see a pilot project looking like? The most important piece that I found in my preparation for today was that if we can expose people to the benefits of a career in the trades and they get an understanding of what the competencies are, then we can make sure we have a workforce down the road. There has been good work already on the government side so far, things like the apprenticeship and incentive grant. It has been totally awesome in terms of our industry. It encourages people to move along through their program. It ends the four-year apprentice program completed in 12 years; it assists with that kind of thing. It gives people the financial incentive to move along.

How do I see a pilot program? I see it linking with programs that have been successful to date but perhaps providing more information to the people who need it.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

At the moment, you are lucky because you are part of the economic stimulus effort. Perhaps you are not feeling the effects of the recession to the same extent because you are part of the solution, and good for you.

However, we know that in the years to come, there are really going to be serious labour shortages. We have to find incentives.

Have you already been in discussion with anyone from the government about your pilot project?

[Christopher Smillie]

This preparation was sort of the brainchild of this pilot project. I had an epiphany, so to speak, about this, and it's probably something we should be focusing on.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So this would be the beginning of the answer to your questions?

[Christopher Smillie]

C'est ca.

At the end of the day, we've been working with the government on a number of things through the red seal program and through HRSDC. This would be something we could fit in there, absolutely.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I have a question for Ms. Émond.

You spoke earlier of promoting the trades and going a step further by building awareness, because you said that parents are not always comfortable with their children choosing a non-traditional occupation.

That is a very sensitive issue. How do we deal with it? How do we change this mentality? How do we promote non-traditional vocations?

[Sylvie Émond]

One way of going about it is to work in partnerships. We have some projects in the works right now with our partners from the Table de concertation à Laval en condition féminine.

The first project will be to develop an inspirational booklet for women along the lines of “only the bold need apply”. It is being put together in the Laurentides region and is part of a collaborative process aimed at helping young women get into traditionally male-dominated fields.

The booklet will be distributed in our training centres and in organizations where women are engaged in non-traditional occupations.

This activity is being funded by a new project of the ministère de l'Éducation, des Loisirs et du Sport.

The second project is a play, and it is not just for students. It can also be for parents, for everyone. We are looking for solutions that will bring people together to make them more aware of the issues surrounding skilled labour and, especially, of opening the door to women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Madam Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It's really good to have all of you here today. It has been very interesting. I think we could probably just listen to you and write a good portion of our report, because of some of the things you've brought forward. Obviously we have a lot of other witnesses, but we're getting so much information from you, and I appreciate that.

I recently read a really interesting article about the fact that our society in many ways has undervalued craftsmanship and physical labour and we have valued knowledge. If we think about it in very practical terms, if we have a young person who's going for a master's degree in a certain area or someone who's going for a plumbing ticket, it seems to me that we generally put more value on the person who is getting the master's degree.

I wonder if each of you has encountered that type of attitude, because it seems to me that if that attitude is pervasive and we probably have young men who are challenged with the question of whether they really want to go into a trade because it's not as good as getting a degree at university, imagine what young women are also facing. I wonder if you are facing that or if that's an issue.

Actually, I would appreciate a response from each one of you.

[Sylvie Émond]

I can give you a personal example.

I have a son who looked like he was heading to university. He was a computer analyst. He was really good, I must say. He was employed by National Defence, but one day, the budget was cut and his position was eliminated. He came home and announced that he was going to attend Le Chantier. Physically, he really was not the type to be working in construction. He spent his time inside, sitting at a computer.

I asked him if he was sure about his choice and he said that he was. He was sure of himself and off he went to enrol at Le Chantier where was trained. Now he is the happiest guy in the world. He works year round on a construction site. I was blown away by it all.

This is a concrete example of a kid who came out of grade 11 with an overall average of 94%, who got a $3,000 scholarship for college, but who ended up not going to university. He has made a success of himself by taking this training and today he is earning a living and building his own house. He is as happy as a clam.

As for women, we trained female electricians at the Commission scolaire de Laval and then we hired them. They work for us. Two years ago, as part of a staff recognition evening, one of those women was recognized for the quality of her work, by her peers, no less. That is quite the achievement. I say that we need to keep doing this. We really must value women all the time.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Ms. Penner or Mr. Smillie, do you encounter the same thing?

[Christopher Smillie]

I've seen that attitude. In fact, it's even intertwined in some of the systems that are in place in this country. If someone applies to move to Canada, they find it difficult to be admissible because the point system doesn't give the same recognition to trades training as it does a Ph.D. So I think there are attitude issues, but there are also systemic issues in terms of the programs and policies we've had for a long time, such as the immigration system.

Our organization is concerned about labour supply, so at the end of the day, when we're forecasting and figuring out what we need to do to get the workforce that we have to provide to our contractors, sometimes we look outside of Canada, and there are even little bits of that in the immigration system.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It is somewhat systemic.

Ms. Penner, we're both from Manitoba, where we have a shortage of skilled labourers, and we brought in a lot of new Canadians to help fill that shortage. In Winkler and the surrounding areas, the Chamber of Commerce has identified one of the main problems as a shortage of skilled labour. They have partnered with the school divisions, so that high school kids who aren't going to university will go on the trades track. After they get through grade 12, they actually have the first part of their ticket. We find that the majority of young women are choosing the cosmetology route, which is fine. It is interesting to know why they're choosing that as opposed to the trades.

I have a 15-year-old daughter, and it's the same sort of thing. She was forced to go to a presentation on women in non-traditional roles, but she did not seem at all interested in it. I think we have to accept that some girls just aren't going to be interested.

A previous presenter was here and talked about the need for more women role models, so that young women can see that they can do it, can see what a woman looks like in a non-traditional role. I think you are a role model, and that is important. I appreciate your being here and telling your story.

Did you have a role model before you got into the construction business?

[Debra Faye Penner]

No, there were no women in the construction industry when I started. My father was a business owner, and that's how I got in.

I believe that to make the industry attractive to women there have to be more women. You don't want to send one woman out to a construction field where there are 20 guys surrounding her. Whether it's discrimination, harassment, or whatever, are they capable of handling that type of situation? We need more equal ground, more women in proportion to men.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Penner.

Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank you very much for being here today. I cannot tell you how proud I am to be from Laval and to be able to say that Le Chantier is in my riding. The work being done there is exceptional.

You referred to a training course which is scheduled for 2010, “Madame bricole tout”. That is of particular interest to me because, in my opinion, one of the factors that makes young women take the plunge and choose a non-traditional occupation is when their mothers talk to them about it.

Now I am almost 60 and I am still afraid of hammers. I have five paintings on a desk at my home here in Hull. I bought a hammer and nails but the five paintings have been on my desk for three months. I am not going to hang them up, someone else will have to do it.

As girls we learned how to play with dolls while our brothers were learning how to play with hammers, screwdrivers, pliers and so on. I think that, by offering this kind of training, and by building awareness among women's groups like Les cercles de fermières, we may have a chance of convincing more young women to opt for the non-traditional occupations.

I do not know. I am just putting the idea out there. You are already so busy that it would not be right for us to find more projects for you. But I want your success to be even greater. I am thinking in terms of a network. There are networks for business women, but is there a network for women in non-traditional occupations where they can work collaboratively and encourage each other once they get a job?

[Bianka Michaud]

We do have a program designed to keep women in the field. It is for both graduates and students. It is about an eight-week program. I know that some girls have taken this training, which focuses a lot on communication. When they have problems at work, they sort them out. There are a quite a number of women who can talk about issues and motivate each other. Several girls have taken this training two or three times because they were able to draw support from it, but with work and family obligations and so on, they end up losing contact with each other and getting a little discouraged.

But, in the long term, it could be an idea that would work.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Would it be possible to set up a pilot project? Actually, there is a Status of Women Canada program, a partnership program. It could help in keeping young women in non-traditional occupations. You can speak to Sylvie after the meeting.

We are doing this because we want to find solutions to your problems. We need you to tell us what your challenges are, your recommendations, and how we can best help you. As female members of Parliament, we are engaged in a non-traditional occupation ourselves. It is a constant struggle to effect change. We are aware of the fact that, until 30% of members of Parliament are women, there will be no change. The same was true of female cashiers: until there were women doing the job, nothing changed. We really have to work together, to cooperate, and that is why we invited you here today. We want to have as much information as possible so that we can help you to continue your excellent work.

Ms. Penner, I congratulate you, you worked in the construction sector in 1990, in Manitoba. I was working on a farm in Saskatchewan at the time. And believe me, I know what you went through. I commend you, you really are an exceptional woman. As Ms. Hoeppner said, it is good to have women, role models like you, but we need to see and get to know these role models. We would never have met you. How is that possible? Are there no newspapers, magazines, that talk about women in non-traditional occupations? I do not know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

There is one minute left.