Status of Women Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Dr. Françoise Naudillon]

Thank you for your question.

Academics and researchers who work with microdata must be able to compare them to be sure that what they are saying is accurate. They have to be able to compare data not only at a local and national level, but also at an international level.

I will tell you a quick story that we heard while we were discussing the international consequences of abandoning the mandatory long form. Mali, one of the poorest countries in the world, and which is, off the top of my head, the 135^th country based on the human development index, did everything in its power, stormed all the printing firms in the country, to produce a long-form census in order to collect the maximum amount of data. Among other things, these data dealt with the issue of women and the work of women. In other words, it is very important for a country like Mali to get all the possible gender-based data. Yet, a country like Canada, which is 5^th on the human development index list, does not even bother to collect data systematically.

I happen to participate in the infamous sessions of the UN Commission on the Status of Women, which take place every year. So I can tell you that, in 2008, the main issue was decent work for women and recognizing their work at home, including the care given to the elderly. In broader terms, meaning at international level, we also addressed the fact that, generally speaking, women feed the planet.

Canada's decision to eliminate this type of questionnaire affects the availability of information about ourselves. It is also sets a bad example for the other countries that are trying to raise their own standards. That is why it is very dangerous. To improve the situation in Mali, they will look at what works best for women in developed countries. But barriers are appearing and steps are disappearing.

That's what is happening internationally. I will stop there.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

What do you think, Ms. Taillon?

[Peggy Taillon]

At a time when we know we've got this sandwich generation, we have a crisis emerging in the country around caregiving. There's a generation that has young children and is very much concerned about taking care of their aging parents. We know this is a fundamental issue. It's only going to grow as our boomers age. To remove the questions related to unpaid work from the national household survey is really problematic. We need that data more than we've ever needed it. It's almost a backward slide.

On the issue of questions, one of the things that's really striking is we did a comparative analysis between the long form and the national household survey. You'd be surprised to note these are really the only questions that are absent. We know that because of the francophone injunction three additional questions were added to the short forms, so now there are eleven questions there. If you do a comparative analysis between the two, the surveys haven't changed.

Clearly the questions really weren't a problem for cabinet, because cabinet decides what the questions are, except for the unpaid work questions. To me, that's a fundamental issue and a fundamental question for Canadians and Canadian women.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

And you, Mr. Norris?

[Doug Norris]

I would make a couple of points on surveys.

Surveys are very important as part of the overall information system and provide us with accurate data. Again, surveys depend on the census in order to make sure they're accurate. However, surveys can't provide data for small areas. For example, a survey won't provide data for your constituencies. You need something like a census, which profiles your constituencies once every five years in much detail. Or a survey won't provide data for small groups, particularly in small areas. So surveys and a census are certainly complementary, but they do not replace one another.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Cathy McLeod]

You have 20 seconds.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You all said that the information gathered would be skewed and that you would be spending more time questioning the results of the data than moving ahead with the programs. I felt there was unanimity on this. Am I mistaken?

Since I only have 20 seconds, you are all nodding “yes”.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Cathy McLeod]

Thank you.

We'll go on to Ms. Brown, please.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you all very much for being here this morning and for your participation in this discussion.

First of all, here is a quick question for the Canadian Council on Social Development. Can you tell me who funds your organization?

[Peggy Taillon]

We are funded by members and private foundations, private donors.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Could you give us some examples of some of those members?

[Peggy Taillon]

The Donner Foundation is a funder. We have funding from the Muttart Foundation. We have thousands of individual and organizational members who fund CCSD.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have just a comment for Madame Naudillon. The number of households that are single-parent households headed by women is I think something that's very apparent; I don't think it would be any surprise to any of us, since courts for the last 30 years have been making those decisions. It is something that I think all of us—certainly any of us who are involved in elected positions or have worked in any social agencies—have known, that the decisions of the court for the last 30 years have been pointing in that direction.

I guess my real questions are for Mr. Norris, if we don't mind. Could you talk to us about the surveys that you use now? I've been the recipient of phone calls from Environics on a regular basis. Could you give us a little description of how you make the decisions on where you're going to target those surveys?

[Doug Norris]

Most of our surveys are client-driven; that is, a client will come to us with a certain problem. They may, for example, be an American company wanting to relocate into Canada and wanting to know about the population in two or three possible sites that they may be looking at. They will ask us to undertake a survey of the area, asking questions perhaps related to the interest in the kinds of products and services that company is offering.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Fundamentally what you're looking for, when a client of yours is looking to relocate or looking to promote a product, is to find out basically what kind of disposable income might be available for a certain product. Would that be accurate?

[Doug Norris]

Well, income is certainly one factor, but it goes way beyond income. What's important is, for example, the changing ethnic mix of our population. People from different backgrounds may have different preferences in their consumer behaviour. They may have different types of families, different types of households. So the interest is in the wide range of what we call socio-economic data.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Sure. So when you talk about male/female income data, you're really looking at targeting a product to a certain market. I've been in business and I certainly know about target marketing because of the service that my business provided. That's really what you're looking for.

[Doug Norris]

Well, no, the reference I made to male/female differences was more in the context of human resource planning. Businesses are in the business of hiring, of promoting women, of retaining women in their workforce. It's very competitive, so they're interested in whether their business represents the face of the community they're serving. To what extent is it true, and do they have to monitor it? Do they want to introduce new programs, introduce new recruitment strategies? As I say, it is a very competitive recruitment environment they're in, and becoming more and more so.

So my reference to the male/female earnings difference was really made on the human resources side of things. But you're right. Certainly marketing to women is an important factor as well.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I just have a comment, if I may, from my own constituency of Newmarket—Aurora.

When I look at the changes that have happened in my riding in even the last five years, quite frankly, I believe that the survey data people are using are not providing them with the information they need. I say this because I am very intent on seeing post-secondary education come to my riding, and I know it's a provincial issue, but I'm trying to build the foundations necessary to support it. But my hospital has had, for the last 10 years, a collection area for services of nearly 200,000 people, and, quite frankly, the surveys have missed the mark for providing the services that need to go along with all of that. So if there's anything Environics can do to support a survey collection of data....

I brought all of this material with me, because it's material that I regularly get at my door from any variety of marketers who are looking to sell products. I guess my question to you is, do you think people should be threatened with jail time or a fine for not answering a survey that is going to provide them with more of this kind of material at their door? Quite frankly, I don't think that's necessary.

Do you have any comments on that?

[Doug Norris]

Well, certainly, the census is used by people who market, as you say. That's one use of the census. By no means is it the most common application. It's used widely, as you've heard, for policy and planning purposes, by educational institutions.

So that is one application, and in fact it's interesting that in using the census, yes, firms do want to advertise, but they are able to better target their advertisements. For example, they're able to cut down on the number of brochures they send to people who probably won't be interested. I'm sure you will get too many—

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Oh, I get lots.

[Doug Norris]

—but there is a big saving in terms of the environment, in terms of being able to target that information better. So the census is widely, widely used.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

So why would a business not be prepared to pay for that? Should the Canadian taxpayer be providing that information without cost to a business, or should it not be a cost of business for the business providing that product to the market?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Cathy McLeod]

You have 20 seconds.

[Doug Norris]

The Canadian businesses in our association actually pay a fair bit of money every year to Statistics Canada for the purpose of using the census information. So there is a part of that census that's certainly cost recovered, and businesses, in particular, are fairly large clients of Statistics Canada.