Status of Women Committee on March 17th, 2010

[Sue Calhoun]

I think it's an interesting model of one of the challenges that women face going into trades. When you go into a trade, there are periods when you're an apprentice and you need to find an employer. That can be a challenge, because some employers are still not prepared to hire a woman as an apprentice welder or in some of those typically male jobs.

But I think it's definitely an interesting model for women who can make it through the trade and come out the other end.

I think there's a lot of research missing regarding the career path or trajectory of a woman who goes into trades and gets her trade, becomes an electrician or becomes a plumber. When you try to find her in the workforce five years later, she's not there. There's very little research being done to look at what's actually happening to those women. I would suspect it's the difficulties in the workplace, not only the harassment that she might face but a lot of the other things that Susan has mentioned already, such as being required to work shift work or to work early in the morning when the day care centre isn't open.

Regarding your earlier comment about university graduates then going back to community college, as I say, in my work life I do a lot of work with the community college system. That is happening to some extent.

I think as well that the IT sector is changing. Everyone has this image that if you go into computer science, you come out the other end a geek, and you sit in a room and program for eight hours a day and you don't talk to anybody. That's the image IT has had for a very long time, which is why women who go into it tend not to last, because it isn't necessarily appealing as something they want to do.

I think IT is changing in the sense, as I said in my statement, that there's a recognition that people who have IT skills also need to be able to communicate with people who don't, like employers and businesses--

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Calhoun, I'm sorry to interrupt, but could you wrap it up, please? We've now gone two minutes over time on this round. That's okay; finish your sentence.

[Sue Calhoun]

So I think the IT sector, for example, is changing to the extent that women are starting to come in a bit more, but there's still a long way to go.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I want to thank all of the presenters here today. I think you've given us a great deal to think about and have certainly identified some significant problems. I hope you'll all feel free to respond to my questions.

I wanted to start with Ms. Calhoun. I thought I very clearly heard you say that despite these apprenticeship programs and the $40 million that was invested, women are still not taking up the offer. It seems to me I saw a statistic that only 2% of the applicants were indeed women.

We talked a bit about child care and the fact that the lack of child care is a problem in regard to women taking up these opportunities. I'm wondering what you think about a more flexible kind of child care. One of the things my colleagues and I have been proposing is a more comprehensive and flexible national child care system so that you don't have the situation that the facility opens at 9 a.m. and it closes at 4 p.m., thus precluding a lot of women. Is that a possibility?

Second, I wanted to pursue what Ms. Wong was saying regarding the fact that women could take up trades and could become trained and then go into business for themselves. It would seem to me that in order to go into business, you would have to have access to capital. Are there prejudices and problems when it comes to women who wish to be involved in their own business being able to access capital?

[Sue Calhoun]

Thank you very much for your questions.

I think in response to your first one, a national child care system that was more flexible.... I think at this point we would be happy with a national child care system that functioned from 9 to 5. Obviously we don't have that in this country, but if we had one, that would be terrific.

You're absolutely right. We need to have a more flexible system where the child care facility opens at 7 in the morning or stays open until 7 at night, for women to be doing these jobs where they are actually working shift work. So absolutely, that's definitely a possibility.

In answer to the second question, I haven't looked at the statistics lately in terms of access to capital for women business owners. I know that in the past it was definitely a challenge for women to get access to capital to start businesses. I think the environment has changed a bit around that, but what I don't know is, if I'm a welder and I want to start my own welding company, will the bank or Community Futures think I can actually do it--because I'm a woman and I'm a welder. I think that would be a good area to research.

I'd like to go back to your first comment. I had mentioned in my statement Canada's economic action plan and this investment of $40 million per year in a new apprenticeship completion grant, where the idea is to encourage people to finish their programs and get their red seals. When I looked at the website, I tried to find something that said that women are being encouraged to access this as well, or that non-traditional trades areas are a good thing for women, or something that would make me think the government really wants women to have some take-up in this program. I couldn't find anything.

If the government really thinks that non-traditional jobs should be more accessible for women, then we need to be proactive. It's like the picture in the paper, right? We need to show the women's faces. We need to say something that convinces women they might actually receive one of these grants.

I think there's a lens missing. If we're serious and we want to do it, we need a lens where we say skilled trades, IT, and all the other traditionally male jobs.... What's the lens that's going to help women get into those?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So there's a gender-based analysis lens missing from policy and these processes, and we need to pursue that.

Thank you for that clarification.

Two minutes? Oh, dear. I'll ask a quick question then.

Ms. Calhoun made reference to the fact that the research function of Status of Women Canada is missing. The dollars for research have been cut, and that creates a problem for new, immediate research into resolving the challenges women are facing. I wonder if you would all comment on that--in less than two minutes.

[Jacinthe Guay]

I think the challenges are similar to those that existed a few years ago. In fact, in Laval, the status of women in non-traditional jobs is about the same as it was in 2000. There has been very little progress, and, in certain fields, the opposite has happened. There are even fewer women enrolling in training programs, and women are not staying in the trades.

In addition, in terms of female entrepreneurs, there is the matter of capital. Female entrepreneurship is different from male entrepreneurship. Women are often more cautious and will hesitate longer before starting a business. They do not tend to take risks. There is also the impact on their families. For example, a women who has been married for 20 years and who has worked at home—raising kids for the past five years—tells her husband that she wants to start a business. Her plan may not be welcomed with open arms. That is a reality we are seeing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We have one minute left, so I'm sorry, we'll have to move on.

We're into the second round, a five-minute round that again includes questions and answers. We'll begin with Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I too want to thank you for being here today. I have lots of questions, but to begin, I'm just going to pursue two lines of questioning.

It is, as we're listening here, a very complicated matter and there are many layers of issues. But there seem to be a number of systemic barriers for women's success in non-traditional trades, and there are two on which I want to focus.

I think it was you, Ms. Guay, who said that a number of men refused to hire women in work teams, in work situations, because of bias, prejudice, and failure to follow through, because they believe women won't stay with the job because of the challenges of families, child care, and whatever. My colleague talked about the lack of flexible child care, let alone any child care for many, and having to pay a dollar a minute when you're late for your child. Is that part of the challenge to all of you?

In terms of my other line of questioning, two of you raised the issue of punishment for harassment in the workplace, that there must be a way of dealing with it through some kind of punitive action. Some years ago I managed a program of women in non-traditional trades, and the stories of harassment were horrendous. I'll always remember an electrical apprentice coming into the office crying because of the acronym that was used to match different wires, colour-code the wires to the instrument, and it was pretty vulgar. That was just one manifestation of the harassment in that workplace.

So I see the family challenges and the harassment challenges as two really significant barriers for women's success in this area, and I'd like any one of the three of you to comment on it.

[Jacinthe Guay]

In terms of work-life balance, women who already have children often will not consider a non-traditional job so they can have time for their family and children. But, when it comes to women who are already in non-traditional jobs, if they ever leave the job for good, it is due to a buildup of all the little pitfalls along the way. One is okay, but when something happens every day, eventually, the women cannot take it any more.

That is why I said that a support service was essential for them, until more permanent solutions are found. I am aware that it is only a temporary solution.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Does anybody else wish to respond—Ms. Russell or Ms. Calhoun?

I'm interested in your comments about punishing I'm not sure who and how, but punishing for harassment in the workplace.

Ms. Calhoun.

[Sue Calhoun]

In terms of punishing, for a lot of employers, especially the larger employers and the ones who do business with the federal government, there are already systems in place for misbehaviour on the work site. First you get the verbal warning, then you get the first written warning, then the second written warning, and then on the third warning you get suspended, or that kind of thing. That exists within a lot of workplaces in Canada.

I think the problem is that we still have a culture in a lot of workplaces, especially workplaces that are traditionally male, that making these kinds of comments is okay. I think it's going to be a matter of trying to change that culture. I don't know how that happens, but with the system in place already, if employers, for example, thought or were told that they were no longer to accept this kind of harassment of women because they are in non-traditional jobs, if employers started to be more diligent about cracking down on those kinds of things, there's no doubt about it that it's a major cultural change, especially for a lot of work sites.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Anita, that's it.

Lois Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to say I meet regularly with the university women's organization in Aurora and we have some wonderful conversations.

Just to put on the record, Madam Chair, I do believe that many of these things that we've been discussing here today do fall under provincial legislation. In Ontario we have the Employment Standards Act, and it is enforced by the Ontario legislation.

However, I just want to say, by way of background, that when I was in secondary school, I was in an academic program but had the opportunity to choose from the technical programs that were available because of the credit system. I chose mechanical and architectural drafting. When I was pursuing my music degree--and I'm a classically trained pianist--I worked in an engineering office as a draftsman or draftsperson and I was responsible for architectural, civil, and industrial design work. I had the opportunity to participate in survey crews as part of my responsibilities to the civil work that I did. Obviously all of that has met with constructive destruction, as they say. It's now done by a CAD system, and I see many women who are pursuing that.

I went back and did business and economics later on, and I am the proud owner of a business now that does disability management for corporations. I worked in construction fields all the time, meeting with injured employees and helping them back into the workplace.

But what we've also seen over the past number of years is an incredible number of women.... I speak to the enormous number of very competent women in Newmarket--Aurora who are business owners. I'd just like to read this into the record:

Over the last 20 years, Canada has seen a 200-percent increase in the number of women-owned firms. By 2001, nearly half (47 percent) of all small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in Canada had at least one female owner. In 2003, women held majority ownership in 18 percent of SMEs, an increase of 3 percent from the previous year. The employment contribution of women-owned firms is also significant.

It goes on to give the stats.

So it seems to me that we need to be not only addressing the issues of employment and how we see women in non-traditional jobs, but also that many women are moving into non-traditional positions in owning their own businesses. So we have a multi-pronged problem. We need multi-pronged responses to it. So if we say that we want to encourage women into the trades.... And right now, we have a demographic problem. If you look at the average age of people who are in the drywall industry, they are 57 years of age. The average plumber right now in Ontario is 53 years of age. So we're coming up against some significant barriers, and we need to be encouraging people to go into these jobs, male or female.

But if we're looking at women going into these businesses.... And they are going into business for themselves because that's where they're going to earn significant dollars, being self-employed and having control of their own futures. How do we put things in place that are going to be of assistance to them? Do you believe that the things we're starting to do in legislation...? For instance, we've passed the Fairness for the Self-Employed Act, where women can now access EI benefits if they choose.

I went through the process in business. I had small children. I had a disabled mother-in-law. All of these are barriers for women. They have these things that they have to do.

How do you see these pieces of legislation assisting women who are going into business for themselves because they see that as a very positive and very productive future?

[Susan Russell]

First, I don't see women going straight into business from university or training college. I see that happening after a period of being in the workforce.

We were talking about harassment in the workforce and some provinces--I think Ontario is one and Manitoba and Quebec are others--have anti-harassment legislation. This is not a federal jurisdiction; it's a provincial jurisdiction. That needs to be enforced. I'm not quite sure how it works, but it's really important legislation. I think women will benefit from that.

Access to loans for women going into business is important. I find that it can be difficult for women to get a loan. If there's microcredit, if there's assistance, I'm quite sure some women would take advantage of that.

Women are very competent managers, but they do need that initial period of time when they're in the workforce and get that experience before they can go into business. They just don't go straight there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. The time is up.

I'm going to move on to Ms. Brunelle.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Good afternoon, ladies. It is a pleasure to meet you.

Ms. Calhoun, you said something I found interesting. You said that you own your own business. I was wondering whether it is a business in a traditional field or not. And perhaps we can get some opinions on this, because we are well aware of the difficulties.

What makes you successful in your field, especially if it is a non-traditional one?

[Sue Calhoun]

So I'm brilliant.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Like all women, Ms. Calhoun.

[Sue Calhoun]

In response to the previous speaker, in 2003 there was a task force report on women entrepreneurs. At that time there were almost a million women entrepreneurs in Canada. They were creating businesses at twice the rate of men. So I think we need to be careful. We're not suggesting that there are not many, many very competent women doing very interesting things. Shortly after that, in 2005, my own company surveyed 500 women business owners in Atlantic Canada for ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. That was to establish the baseline data for the women in business initiative. We went into that study assuming that we would find women in certain categories, certain fields. Retail was an example. A lot of people had the idea that women businesses were all in retail. We were surprised to find a diversity. There was a wide range of different areas of endeavour that women had started businesses in.

This new legislation came into effect in January so that self-employed women can access maternity parental benefits as well as passionate care and sickness benefits. This is something we have asked for, for a long time. We're happy to see it. We like the choice part of it because we're not sure a lot of our members will do take-up on it, but some members definitely will.

I agree with the previous speaker.... I'm sorry, I didn't get your name.

There are a lot of very competent women who are working in other fields. To go back to that, it is a multi-pronged approach that is needed. We can go back to the way boys and girls are raised. If you look at the newspapers and the websites around us, you see who is working in the skilled trades. Until we get some more women's faces in there...that area is changing more slowly.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You know, we can see that networking is important, at least based on my experience as a manager. In politics, a woman's network is important. That is one of the big secrets that men have with their boys' clubs, where university classmates, for example, successfully organize themselves. That is something that women are really lacking. I see that you have a businesswomen's club, so I think it must be the same principle.

But I would like to ask you another question. You mentioned working on an EI program for non-traditional jobs. What exactly do you mean by that? Does it mean giving grants to employers who hire women to work in non-traditional jobs? Is that what it is?

[Sue Calhoun]

I used the example in my statement. There are two new initiatives that the federal government has started for EI. They're called the extended employment insurance and training incentive and the severance investment for training initiative. Both of those are geared towards people who have been employed long term, who have been laid off, who have collected EI very little in the past decade. They can be on EI to go back to train for a new career. Again, when I went on that site and looked around--I'm assuming, for example, that a woman who was laid off from a secretarial job, after being there 10 years and not collecting EI, could potentially access EI to go back and take training to be a carpenter. I don't know that by looking at the website.

It comes back again to what I said earlier about having that gender lens. There's already a program for self-employment. If you get laid off, you can start your own business and be on EI. But there's nothing on this website that suggests to me that women going back for training in non-traditional areas would be a good thing to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Irene Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to go back to the issue of mentorship. Madame Guay talked about winning options and the success in the kinds of things that program did. I would ask all three, if you were creating a mentorship program, something you felt had real substance and would really be helpful for women, what would the mentorship program that you create look like?