Status of Women Committee on Feb. 17th, 2011

[Jim Lanigan]

One thing that is evident is the increase of aboriginal people in the urban community. Ottawa, for example, according to the last census, had an increase of 40%. Some of that is people identifying as aboriginal, but much of it is people coming to the city or going from the city. There is a constant mobility there—

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

A shifting of people.

[Jim Lanigan]

That's it exactly.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Here is another thing that comes to mind when I hear about the violence and the dysfunctional families. We're building things at the end here. If we think of it as a spectrum, we're at the far end of the spectrum: we're building housing because we haven't been able to deal adequately with people who are in stressful situations with one another.

What are we doing with regard to looking at the starting point rather than the end point? What are we doing with regard to asking whether we are putting together family counselling operations or supplying educational programs for young people, programs that challenge them rather than see them running away from that building called “school”? What kind of front-end operations are we looking at that would alleviate the back end?

[Jim Lanigan]

I can answer that as well.

I always have to use the Ottawa example. Certainly I think we have a good array of aboriginal delivery services here in the city of Ottawa. We have services for children, for youth, and for women, and for housing and the aboriginal health centre. There's a significant amount of activity going on.

So yes, we are making progress. Again, the whole question is one of supply and demand. There are just more people coming in all the time, and there are more issues. A lot of the services that people come to Ottawa for aren't available on the first nations...they have to come here to get them. We have to ensure that when they do arrive, they fit into the community, that they get a sense of belonging here and they get to become good neighbours with the people who live next door. We try to do that through our housing system. We have counsellors. Each of the organizations that exists in town has them.

[Charles Hill]

I want to add a couple of words to that. Not all of the people on all of the reserves are dysfunctional, and not all of the families. A lot of the dysfunction that has occurred harks back to the deprivation I was talking about earlier with regard to the loss of economic bases and things like that. It varies from reserve to reserve.

My reserve in southern Ontario is right in the heart of the Golden Horseshoe, so there are a lot of jobs around. People can work off the reserve, but they live on the reserve. The other thing that is happening on that reserve, though, is that people are taking on the challenges of helping people recover, and I think that's happening right across the country. Various reserves have set up their own counselling systems. Much of that is based on traditional teachings in terms of healing.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you.

Here is one last question. What consideration has been made to the construction of townhouses and apartment buildings rather than single-detached houses for folks?

[Charles Hill]

Do you mean on reserve?

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I'm talking about anywhere there's a need.

[Charles Hill]

We have a seniors residence here that we purchased through Gignul Non-Profit Housing, going on five or six years ago, and presently, thanks to the aboriginal housing trust fund, we're in the process of building a 28-apartment complex that will belong to us. So there is some movement in this area, on reserves and in other cities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Hill and Mr. Boughen.

We have Monsieur Desnoyers for the Bloc.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to all of you. My question is for all of you.

Mr. Lanigan, you scared me a little when you said that it would take between 10 and 15 years to meet social housing needs, because you may be right. This would mean that, if we want to fight violence against women, we have decided to focus on poverty and the lack of housing, since these are some of the main reasons why there is violence against women.

I have a question for Ms. Mitchell. In 2005, there was a shortfall of between 20,000 to 35,000 housing units on aboriginal reserves. In 2006, 26% of natives living on reserve were living in overcrowded housing conditions. As for the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, that figure stood at 40%.

Does the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development have a strategy to counter this problem? Indeed, it is a fact that overcrowded housing is one of the main factors that lead to violence against women.

[Gail Mitchell]

Thank you for your question.

As for this strategy, we have two programs. First, we have a housing program,

through which we provide financial assistance. Also, we have a program to construct shelters for aboriginal women. There are 41 shelters servicing 300 communities.

As it now stands, additional funding which—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Your report contains several figures, and other figures were published in 2005. Based on those numbers, at the time, there was a shortfall of 35,000 housing units.

In your opinion, how much time will it take to solve this problem, even with the programs you mentioned?

[Gail Mitchell]

Of course, it will take a very long time.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So, this means that for a very long time, women will continue to be victims of violence. In many cases, it is inevitable that these women, who live in overcrowded conditions, will have to deal with major and significant problems.

Does the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development have a strategy which includes an objective that will bring about results more quickly than “in a very long time”?

[Gail Mitchell]

We find that housing on reserve is not lasting as long as one would expect it to. The pressures of overcrowding and other impacts affect the life expectancy, if you will, of housing. We have to look at it from the angle of the people who are occupying homes and the supports they need to be able to manage that, as well as from the angle of the community in managing the housing stock.

Indian Affairs doesn't own the housing, nor does it directly manage the housing stock. Communities need assistance in developing the types of skills to manage social housing. We are putting in place programs to support better capacity building. We're working very closely with CMHC—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That sounds like it is too little, too late.

A little earlier, you said that this created jobs in communities. If major programs were implemented, this would create good jobs, which would probably bring down poverty levels in the various communities, and it would, at the very least, solve part of the problem. Because, based on what every witness has said before the committee, the problems in aboriginal communities are extremely serious. We will be making an important recommendation to the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

I will come back to you, Mr. Barriault. We were told that in Nunavut, the rate of overcrowded housing was 40%. A few moments ago, my colleague Nicole Demers talked about what she saw in that region. How long will it take for your program to address this issue in Nunavut?

[Alain Barriault]

The way we decided to address this issue, because you can never solve every problem, is that we—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You said “never”. This means that women will forever continue to suffer, correct?

[Alain Barriault]

It means that if we do not change the way we do things, we will not be able to solve these problems. We are trying to find better ways of doing so.

One of the things we need to improve is logistics. There are many small communities spread out everywhere. These villages are not connected. No matter how much we help one community, that help will only go towards that community; it cannot be shared. For us, this represents huge challenges and it is very expensive. Every small village of a 140 people needs housing and support, which is very expensive. Until now, the funding spent to solve problems has been distributed equally, based on population, but this approach is not fair given our logistical challenges.

If we want to build a building in Taloyoak, we buy the building materials in Ottawa. These materials are then trucked 5,000 kilometres to the coast of British Columbia. Then, the materials are loaded on a ship, which travels another 12,000 kilometres before getting to the village. The solution costs a lot of money.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you have any?

[Alain Barriault]

We do not have a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. You're over your time now. I'm sorry.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope I can get all these questions in.

We've heard a diversity of opinions with regard to the location of shelters. For example, in Thunder Bay there was a discussion about the fact that the shelter intended for women who were abused was being taken over by the general population because there was a dreadful lack of housing in remote communities. So it simply wasn't possible to have a separated shelter for an abused woman or abused women.

While we were in Thunder Bay and Sioux Lookout, we talked to a woman who runs the local shelter in Sioux Lookout. She talked about the problems with women having to come into the city from their communities. They had to leave their children behind. It was extremely stressful. They felt isolated. In addition to that, there were transportation costs.

Could you clarify who's responsible for paying the transportation and financial support costs for women who have to leave their communities because there's no shelter there and they have to go to the larger centre?