Status of Women Committee on April 12th, 2010

[Eleanor Marynuik]

Yes. In some instances, there are people who are called back the next day, but that is not the majority of the work. The majority of the work still is within the dispatch hall.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Let me ask you this. It's quite a picture that is painted with respect to working. There are 12 locals, if I'm correct...?

[Tom Dufresne]

Yes, but engaged directly in longshore, there are fewer than that.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Okay. But of the 12 locals, then, there are no women on any of the locals as officers or on the executive. Have there ever been?

[Tom Dufresne]

There are women in Local--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Who have been elected?

[Tom Dufresne]

Yes. Women have been elected in the past. The one who was on the Local 500 executive, Shirley Jaco, was one of the first women elected. She has moved on to a supervisory position. She's the only supervisor who is female. Like you say, that's--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Let me ask you this, then; it's more of an observer thing. When an instance as has been described is observed, are there any protocols in the union with respect to the union for how something is dealt with? If an instance of discrimination or something that would make somebody else uncomfortable is observed, what are the rules or what is the protocol that the union would follow to discipline a worker?

[Tom Dufresne]

On discipline, first off, what you have to do is you have to investigate the situation, the allegation. The person could go to the supervisor on the job, either a foreman or a superintendent, and report that they're being harassed on the job or--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

What about those who are just on their way and even waiting to be dispatched?

[Tom Dufresne]

When they're waiting to be dispatched? Well, the BCMEA controls the dispatch in the Port of Vancouver. It's jointly administered. There's a business agent on duty. People could go up and complain to the business agent or to the dispatch staff, or they could call one of the officers.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I understand that, but do you not educate your members specifically on appropriate behaviour, on how to make other people feel comfortable? I'm not specifically talking about women, I guess, in this instance. I might be talking about minorities or any individuals who might otherwise feel uncomfortable approaching. I can tell you that I'd be uncomfortable with the situation that was described--

[Tom Dufresne]

Yes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

--but we're talking about women here. Within your guidelines, within the rules, how do you educate your members about what is appropriate behaviour and how they should act? I want to know how many members have been disciplined and what the punishments were if they have been disciplined. Let me just ask you those two questions.

[Tom Dufresne]

Okay. As to the number of people who have been disciplined, I'm not sure.

One of the most effective ways of ending discrimination is to address it right at the moment that it happens. For instance, on the complaints in the Port of Vancouver that were filed, there are currently two outstanding complaints that were filed jointly against the union and the BCMEA. But there's also an arbitration outstanding. We're waiting for the arbitrator's decision. That's a case that has cost the union, like I said, almost a million dollars.

Out on the Fraser River, we've had about three complaints filed there with the Human Rights Commission. They've been resolved; they've been mediated.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Let me just... Sorry, I'm looking more specifically at it with respect to the union and how it educates its members.

Ms. O'Donnell, perhaps you can jump in here as well. Have you been advised or have you been engaged to help educate the membership of the unions on how to behave better so that...? I don't want to specifically point.... Well, actually maybe I do, in this round. Is your specific mandate for how they can better behave, how they can make the environment more comfortable? What recommendations do you have? Have you reviewed some of the bylaws or anything else that the union has? Are the charters that make up their rules and regulations sufficient to address these issues?

I'll leave you with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds to answer that.

[Susan O'Donnell]

That's a big question.

It is part of my mandate with the union and with the CLC to try to develop better procedures in terms of education, but it is the employer's responsibility; the environment is the employer's responsibility. The employer has sole liability for the environment of harassment in the workplace.

Having said that--that's a legal proposition and somewhat mechanical--I will say that the union does take the position that we have some responsibility for the conduct of our members. One of the reasons that we want to do an audit is that we want to see what kinds of specific behaviours we need to concern ourselves with.

What I hear over here is that people are scared. I've heard that from other people, too, when they come into the process. Well, why are they scared? How are people conducting themselves? What programs can we design to stop it? That's part of my mandate.

But we have another problem and that is that human rights law is not punitive law. One of the big difficulties for unions and human rights law is that the employer--and not just this employer--often comes to harassment from a perspective of discipline, and then the union is compelled to go in and grieve for the perpetrator. The complainant is forgotten. So what we want to do is design a program that helps our union members relearn how to conduct themselves in the workplace, and if--

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. O'Donnell, can I just ask you to wrap it up?

[Susan O'Donnell]

Okay.

If punishment is necessary, I've been told that we can pull them off work for a day--

[A voice]

[Inaudible--Editor]...were saying something different.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

For the Bloc, Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome to all of you.

First of all, Mr. Vurdela, it seems to me that the argument regarding hiring families does not hold water. It makes no sense because the major railway companies—CN, CP, VIA—would not have become what they are if, at the time, families could not have been hired. That is why the railways became so strong and grew so big.

In the automobile sector, there was family hiring also. People held jobs for 25 or 30 years at that time. Today, perhaps things have changed, but I think that the argument is less and less obvious and valid. I think that the longshoremen have reached the point where they will have to put some policies into place. As far as I know, management rights are not a matter for the union. It must be the employer's responsibility, I assume. So when I say put policies in place so that women can go to work in that sector, there can be a great many options.

Earlier, Ms. O'Donnell raised the issue of daycares. Is the employer prepared to set up daycares in the workplace in order to make it easier for women to work there? I don't know if you are prepared to do so. I know that employers always bring up the costs involved, but witnesses from the oil and gas sector, which is growing significantly, told us about employers who have made all kinds of arrangements and accommodations for women.

I feel that the longshore needs arrangements of that kind and employers are in the best position to respond to that situation. Are they ready to do so? I do not think that the solution is to take 200 people and put them at the head of the line. That would not solve the problem. A process must be put in place to ensure that we eventually have a structure that allows women to be hired and makes the job easier for them at the same time. I could use the example of the automobile sector where, 15 years ago, there were only men. Today, because the union and the employer put policies in place, things are different. For example, with harassment, you emphasized that there should be a policy that could solve the problem without being punitive. I don't know if your collective agreement has such a policy, but this requires both the employer and the union to take on some of the responsibility. Both have to work on solving problems of harassment or discrimination.

I do not know if you want to set up structures to encourage daycares in the workplace, a non-discriminatory situation, and training for these women. I feel that major work is needed because not all women have easy access to your training programs. In fact, they may have children and may have to leave work earlier or arrive later.

We know that longshoremen's schedules are completely different from those in other occupations. The employer waits for the ships to arrive before calling people into work. If no ships arrive, no one is called. When the ship docks, they get out the list of workers and call them. Mr. Dufresne, you said earlier that you call people. So, as Ms. Marynuik was saying, it is not simply an issue of going to a place, Vancouver, for example, to get a job. You stated, and I would like to hear your comment on this, that you reach people by telephone. That means that they do not have to go to a specific place. That may be a solution to the problem that you raised. Mr. Dufresne said that that was they do.

I am throwing a lot of ideas your way at the same time. But I feel that the solutions are in your hands and both parties have to want to achieve results. Obviously, the employer has the resources, not the union, so when you want to set things up—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Monsieur Desnoyers, you have one more minute, so if there's a question there, perhaps we can hear it.