Evidence of meeting #46 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.
A video is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, we developed them in the Treasury Board. But when you develop a policy for the government, an internal administrative policy, it has relationships to other legislative and policy instruments.
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We are required to keep a safe workplace for employees, yes, so it's under the labour code.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you.
Going back, I know a couple of my colleagues touched on this, and I'm talking about the formal versus the informal method of filing a complaint or a grievance. Do you actually encourage one method over the other?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We encourage people to use all the tools that are available. Again, from where we are, it's hard to see what every incident looks like. We do want to make sure that deputies have a range of tools available so that they and departments can deal with this in a holistic way. One advantage of the new policy is that it does provide a lot of avenues for resolution, some of which can be quite quick. What we encourage is really very case-specific.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you.
I have a private member's bill that deals with the complaint and grievance process within our prison system, but I see clearly in the statements you made on October 16 that there are two different types of formal mechanisms to filing a complaint. One is filing a complaint of harassment in accordance with the policy of harassment prevention and resolution; the second is filing a grievance. You're clearly differentiating the two.
What is the clear difference between filing a complaint versus filing a grievance?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll start, and I'll ask Martine to join in.
As you'll recall, we originally proposed that we have one route, and the unions advised us in consultations that they would like to keep the grievance route. This is a fairly clearly defined process that we've set up within the policy. It is easier to trigger a grievance, and it's something that bargaining agents are more comfortable using from time to time. That's a tool they're more used to using.
Martine.
Manager, Values and Ethics, Treasury Board Secretariat
The other one is there because some didn't feel comfortable going through the grievance process, so way back we decided that an internal process should also be available, and that's the complaint process.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Why would someone not feel comfortable going through the grievance process? Again, I'm trying to determine what it is with one that would cause someone to choose going through the grievance procedure—that's a requirement, apparently, from the unions—or actually submitting or filing a complaint. I'm trying to figure out what would be the key difference, and why someone would choose one over the other. If it's a matter of feeling uncomfortable, I want to know why they would feel uncomfortable.
Manager, Values and Ethics, Treasury Board Secretariat
If I look at a comparison of the two processes in front of me, the grievance is the one that deals with the chain of command. The manager is involved, and higher up as well. With the complaint process, it is a delegated manager or a representative from the department who is looking at it, and they may be more distanced from the situation.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Aside from the situation—they don't want to discuss it with someone who's—
Manager, Values and Ethics, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, that would be the main difference, I would say, between the two processes.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Also, with regard to the informal mechanism, it says here that it includes discussions with an informal conflict resolution practitioner or with an employee assistance program counsellor. I'm guessing neither of these two are actually on hand in various organizations or departments, so how does that process actually get initiated? What happens in order to call in that resolution practitioner or program counsellor? What is required? We're not getting the full details here?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Departments are required to have both available to their employees. They're delivered in different ways in different organizations, but they're all available to all employees.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Are they present, so that you can knock on a door and say, “I have an issue”, or do you have to go through someone to request that type of consultation?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Employees can request it directly.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sometimes it's not in person. It depends on the set-up of the department. If you have a large, regionalized department, you may have to call the person and so on, but it is available to employees.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
I am going to have to stop you there. Your time is up.
Your turn, Ms. Ashton. You have five minutes.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you. I'll be sharing my time with my colleague, Ms. Hughes.
It has come to our attention that in some departments...we heard the number 29%, but in some departments the numbers are higher, and in some a bit lower. In some departments, based on the numbers that are out there, women are experiencing more harassment than men. However, we don't know what kind of harassment, based on the fact that there is no such question.
Departments like Correctional Services of Canada have been noted as experiencing disturbingly high rates of harassment: 44% of women are harassed in this department. Indian Oil and Gas Canada, a satellite agency at Aboriginal Affairs, reported that 53% of women are being harassed. Of all female employees at Aboriginal Affairs, 39% are perceiving harassment.
I think we can all agree that these numbers are unacceptable, and we know from them that many cases, as noted earlier, are going unreported. Given this reality, I believe it's the duty of the committee to recommend that we find how many of these cases are sexual harassment in nature.
Beyond a new survey, which is obviously not going to be taking place until 2014, I'm wondering if you could suggest how, from your end, the lead could be taken to ensure that we get better data and get to the bottom of the kinds of numbers we're seeing here today, particularly those experienced by women, who, as we know, face a much higher rate of sexual harassment.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are really two key sources of data, one of which would be driven out of the actual complaint process itself. As I mentioned in my last presentation, we have asked departments for that in the past, in the MAF in 2009-10. The advantage of using a survey to do so is that people have anonymous answers to it, so I think they feel a bit more free to express their opinions about it. I will stress, though, that in a perception survey, it's a perception, and there is some more testing required to ensure whether the allegations are true or not.
There's nothing to stop an organization from doing a survey of their own, for example. For reasons of the size of the project and cost, it's very difficult to run a survey across the whole public service every year, but we do encourage departments to do surveys as they need to. In fact, a number of them do so. I'm not aware of any that have done it on this particular issue, but I think we could offer that as a follow-up to the committee, to find out if they have.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Thank you very much.
I haven't heard all of the testimony, but from what I've reviewed, and from my experience in life, I can tell you that as a young woman working in a variety of retail sectors, I, myself, have experienced sexual harassment from management. I can also tell you that I worked for 13 years in the corrections service, so I know full well the difficulties that people face there, especially having worked as a union rep as well.
You mentioned that you recognize a healthy culture when you see it. I would challenge you on that, because sometimes in those areas things are hidden. We think everything's good, but it's not. I think we need to be very careful when we make those types of comments.
On the culture piece, we heard from you that you agreed that culture is a key in dealing with the problems of harassment. In the last meeting of the committee, a witness who is a lawyer and takes many cases of sexual harassment in the public sector said distinctly that if more women were in higher employment positions, the culture in federal workplaces would be less tolerant of harassment. I wonder if you agree or disagree with that statement. In your opinion, what kinds of specific proactive measures can be taken to ensure a harassment-free workplace?
You also mentioned that you've given them the tools, but it's up to the department heads whether or not they use those tools. I question that, as to why we would have tools and just leave it up to somebody to decide, as opposed to making it mandatory.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll work from the last question back, if it's okay.
The department heads are required to use the policy. What we've said is to use the tools that are appropriate to your environment.
In terms of the question of representation, if you look at the data related to employment equity groups in the government, of course, of which women are one, we have very strong representation throughout the public service, and into the highest levels as well, approximately equal to their workforce availability. That's a fact that we have in the government.