Status of Women Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[Audrey O'Brien]

Exactly.

If the person has any cause to be upset or to feel that the supervisor is disrespectful to them, they can certainly go to human resources, to the FST program—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Unfortunately, I have to interrupt you, Ms. O'Brien. The five minutes go by quickly, don't they?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Oh, mon Dieu! I talk too much; that's the terrible thing about me.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

But it was very interesting.

We have three minutes left to complete this round of questions.

Mrs. Hassainia, I will give you the three minutes.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be sharing my time with my colleague.

First, I would like to thank our guests for their testimony this morning.

I would like to ask Ms. L'Heureux a question about the document concerning the procedure for filing a harassment-related complaint and the guide for determining what constitutes harassment. In the column headed "What Does not Generally Constitute Harassment" it says: "A single or isolated incident such as an inappropriate remark or abrupt manner."

Ms. L'Heureux, could you give me your opinion about that definition?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

We will consider the type of remark in a particular context in our training programs. We will examine scenarios and look at how these remarks may be made. Is it a remark directed to an individual with a particular intention? Is it something said thoughtlessly? How will it be interpreted? This would not necessarily be harassment. It has to be seen in context. A remark that is made does not necessarily amount to harassment. It has to be considered in context.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am going to move right along to the next question.

Ms. O'Brien, I am very proud to hear the answer you gave Ms. Ashton about the organizational culture and how it has progressed since the 1960s. I also congratulate you for staying all this time because you must really have had some difficult times.

There are about 1,800 full-time employees and 300 temporary employees. I would like to talk about the organizational culture. Can the fact that there are a number of women managers have an impact on the fact that there are so few complaints? Is it easier to solve problems with more women in management positions?

[Audrey O'Brien]

It is hard to say what the reasons why we have seen an improvement are. Certainly having women in management positions makes a difference. As I told Ms. Ashton earlier, it means that employees are able to recognize themselves in the management cadre. That is important.

As well, you can tell from my white hair that I am one of the employees with the most seniority. As the generations succeed each other at the House, people bring new behaviours that are perhaps more respectful than before. I would not want to say that it is just the fact that there are women in management positions that makes the difference, but it is one of the factors.

While I am here, I would like to point out that my colleague Sonia L'Heureux is the first female librarian. All of her predecessors were men.

[Sonia L'Heureux]

Thank you.

[Audrey O'Brien]

We are gradually getting there.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you very much.

This concludes our discussion. Thank you for taking the time to come and meet with us. It was very interesting.

I am now going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes to allow the other witnesses to take their places and so that people can get a coffee or a glass of water.

Thank you.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Let us resume our meeting, if we want to have as much time as possible.

Good morning again, everyone. Once again, we have representatives of the Department of National Defence with us as we continue our study on sexual harassment in the federal workplace. We are very grateful to you for coming back to the committee, given that we were interrupted last week.

Since you already gave your presentation last week, this week we are just going to ask questions so we can make good use of the time we have. If I may, I am going to introduce our witnesses again. We have with us Susan Harrison, Jacqueline Rigg, Karol Wenek, Cdr Tony Crewe and LCol Mark Gendron, not Gordon as I said last week.

If it is agreeable, we will move on to questions right away. We will start with Ms. Ambler, from the government party.

You have seven minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for returning to our panel and our study on sexual harassment in the workplace.

Ms. Rigg, in your remarks last week you mentioned the zero tolerance policy and theme which we are hearing from most of the presenters to our committee. I think we can all agree that this is a very positive thing. When we're talking about harassment of any kind, zero tolerance has to be the starting point.

I'm wondering what this mean in practice. We're also talking about the culture in the workplace. In fact, our previous panel brought this up, the point being that different workplaces have different cultures. The environment is different. I would say that in the military the environment is going to be, quite obviously, different from what it would be for people in an office setting, for example.

Can you tell me how the zero tolerance theme plays out in the defence department with staff who work in this particular milieu?

[Jacqueline Rigg, Director General, Civilian Human Resources Management Operations, Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources Civilian), Department of National Defence]

Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The strong stance we take against harassment is supported by many things within our organization. Our emphasis always is on prevention. We do extensive training on prevention with all of our employees, as well as our managers. Also, in order to do that our policy and guidelines indicate it's not even just the responsibility of the person who feels they're being abused, but it's also the responsibility of anybody else who observes this type of behaviour. They have a responsibility as well to report, to talk to that person, and to encourage them as well to report.

You're right when you speak about the atmosphere and culture of an organization. In an organization where 70% of our civilian staff are managed by military, we're very aware that there's a need to be ever present. We do poster campaigns. We do information sessions. We make sure that all employees are aware of what we consider appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. In terms of our training sessions, they are mandatory. There's one for supervisors, and one for employees as well.

The culture change starts with the leadership, in terms of their non-acceptance of anything that seems to be off-colour or incorrect. We do early action, even on items that may not be so sure. We try to do correction with our staff before something becomes an issue. That's why we have responsible officers who look at organizations. There's one per unit. There's a responsible officer and a harassment adviser per unit. They actually keep an eye on those situations, to try to ensure everybody's educated and aware of our stand on harassment.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Wenek, as the chief of military personnel, would you say you follow the same process, in terms of leadership training, so that the culture and the environment of the military is taken into consideration when implementing a zero tolerance policy?

[Karol Wenek, Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence]

Yes, Madam Chair, I think that one of the principal issues as well is that military members and commanders have a positive duty to deal with any issues that come before them. They cannot let issues slide. Their failure to comply with that directive could be treated under the code of service discipline, and they could be subject to disciplinary measures for such failure.

In fact, when General Baril was chief of the defence staff in the late 1990s and shortly after the Maclean's story broke on sexual assault and harassment in the Canadian Forces, he sent out a very strongly worded letter to all commanders advising them of their responsibilities. He opened a 1-800 line for women who felt that their complaints were not being adequately addressed.

He did receive a number of complaints from women. I believe there was one circumstance in which one of the complainants said that the commanding officer did not follow up seriously on the complaint. He had an invitation to appear in front of the chief of the defence staff and as a result of the interview, he was relieved of his duties. When the senior leadership intervenes in that way and takes a strong stand, it sends a strong exemplary message to the rest of the chain that we are taking it seriously.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Was this as a result of a 1-800 call?

[Karol Wenek]

It was a result of a complaint coming to his attention. It might have come through a letter or some other form, but his office was open to receive those complaints directly.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Do you think that anonymity is important in encouraging complainants to speak out?

[Karol Wenek]

Well, it can't be anonymous because the respondent has a right to know the nature of the complaint and who is making the complaint. There is a balance of responsibilities that has to be observed here.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Of course.

Ms. Rigg, you mentioned that women are overrepresented in the management group made up of executives in the civilian services. I assume that means over 50% of the employees.

[Jacqueline Rigg]

I think it means over, but I'll double-check with my colleague, Susan Harrison. I believe it means over our targeted allotments for EE, employment equity.