Status of Women Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Good morning. I would like to thank our witnesses for being with us here today.

One of the interesting recurring themes that has come up in the presentations made by various witnesses has been the importance of culture, both in creating a space where sexual harassment doesn't take place, but also culture in the context of a workplace being prone to sexual harassment.

A couple of our witnesses pointed out that when we're talking about culture and looking at the proportion of women working in a certain space, that is very critical, but also very important is the presence of women in decision-making positions in a workplace.

I'll direct this specific point to you, Ms. O'Brien. I understand that you are the first woman to hold the position that you do, as Clerk of the House of Commons. Clearly, it's a very well-respected position and a position that holds a great deal of clout in this universe.

We know that you worked in this space prior to having that position. I'm wondering if you might be able to share some thoughts about how you see that importance of culture, not just in the context of your position, but does it make a difference to have women in decision-making positions, whether it's in terms of human resources or finance or whatever it might be? In the context of the House of Commons, is it important to have women in those kinds of decision-making positions? What kind of workplace culture might that create, perhaps compared to a workplace culture that existed some years ago, for example?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Through you, Madam Chairman, thank you to Ms. Ashton.

Yes, I am privileged to be the first woman Clerk of the House of Commons. I was very pleased to accept that appointment. I'm the perfect person to ask this question of because I have been around for so long. I first started at the House in the mid-seventies. I will spare you a step-by-step journey through my career.

One of the things that has really struck me is how much the workplace has changed in the last 15 years. In the mid-seventies when I first came here, it really was very much antediluvian. It wasn't as if I was coming from a particularly progressive workplace. but it was very much a kind of feudal situation that existed at the House. That of course was before Madam Sauvé and the changes in administration and so forth that took place later on. In fact I left the House. I was here for about 18 months and then I left. I came back in 1980 to find the place really much changed.

Certainly since 1980, which I realize is in the mists of time for many people, there has been very dramatic change in the way the culture operates. Within the last 15 years, I think the changes we see in society generally have certainly permeated the culture here. I was really very touched and truthfully surprised at how many women working here came up to me after I was appointed as Clerk to say how happy they were to see a woman in that position. I had thought that it had largely gone unnoticed to tell you the truth. I was thrilled. One of the things that concerns me is the number of table officers, which at one time had been 50% women, has now diminished so that there are more men than women. That was through people moving on and so forth, but I think it's very important that we keep an eye on that.

It does make a difference, not because women are the repository of all good, but I think if people recognize themselves in the management cadre, right away you have a greater likelihood that they are more inclined to trust. Then it's up to us to prove worthy of that trust. It has made a great difference.

Certainly the greater number of women who were elected in the last election has made a great deal of difference. One of the things we strive for, for instance, even in the page program, is to have an even number of boys and girls. I say boys and girls; they would be appalled at my ageism. They're young men and young women. Actually it's young men who are proving to be more elusive at this rate, but I do think it is important.

The culture is much more tolerant than it was. One of the things that I have found is.... A friend of mine once gave me this little adage as I was ranting about something or other, that you should never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.

One of the things that happens in a lot of cases and one of the reasons I think our informal conflict resolution process works well is that if you can get conflicts at a point before they have hardened into positions and everybody has a stake in winning, you have a much better likelihood of people coming to a resolution.

That said, it doesn't take away the fact that you have to have absolutely no tolerance for harassment in any form. Once that is understood, I think you find behaviours changing. I am very proud of the workforce that we have. One of the things, as Sonia was mentioning about the library, is that we are bigger than the library at the House of Commons, but I think that because we are close enough to the front lines, everybody sort of knows what's going on so that we really keep a close eye on things.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Your time is up. Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Mrs. O'Neill Gordon, who will have seven minutes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

I noticed as well last night, Ms. O'Brien, that you are the first lady to hold this position, and I want to offer words of congratulation. We all know that you do a great job. It's an interesting job, no doubt, but it certainly can be demanding as well.

I also want to note that I like the idea of the FST and working together, because this process helps everybody become aware and become part of it. I like what you just said about the many changes you have seen. It certainly must have been an interesting role from when you came until now. You've seen many changes. I believe we are headed in the right direction with this policy of allowing no harassment at all. With that attitude, I'm sure we're headed in the right direction.

It takes leaders like you who play an important role to set the tone and the expectations from the very beginning. That's where it all starts, with your leader and what they expect of you, because then they know where they stand.

With regard to the harassment prevention program, how often are the training sessions offered and how is their effectiveness measured?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Perhaps I'll ask my colleague, Kathryn, to speak to that.

[Kathryn Butler Malette]

Finding Solutions Together is a very active program that came out of the idea of the integrated conflict management system that exists in the federal public service. We took it and made it into something homegrown here at the House of Commons.

It's very much aligned to our policy of absolutely zero tolerance for harassment in the workplace. There is no tolerance whatsoever. Any issues that arise—and I can't say there are many at all—are thoroughly looked into, because an allegation of harassment is often a perception of the person. You can't just dismiss it; you have to examine what that perception is.

When Finding Solutions Together got under way, in both instances we hired a labour lawyer with many years of experience in labour relations to run the program. A big part of the program, which you asked about in your question, is training. We, like the library, have obligatory training for our managers, for our employees, for unions. Everybody goes through that training, all shifts. Each year we have almost a blast of training of staff, and new staff are trained as well. They learn about the components of the policy. They understand what harassment means and what perception means and how managers need to be alert to the signs and the comments and the complaints of staff, to take action right away.

Our coordinator in Finding Solutions Together has tremendous experience and deals with a lot of issues, conflict issues mostly. Conflict is a normal thing in a workplace; it's a normal thing in life. She deals with a lot of those issues, often involving the union, if the employee is in agreement, to see whether they can work out a solution.

The statistics we keep are related to whether we think a number of grievances are affected in a good way and whether they are diminishing by virtue of the program, as well as by our number of formal complaints. Certainly the number of formal complaints is next to zero, and the grievances have diminished as well.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

The other question is, when you speak of alternative methods of resolution, what precisely do you mean, and what options are available for them?

[Audrey O'Brien]

I was talking about the fact that there is a formal process for lodging a grievance, but then there are informal processes, the main one of which is Finding Solutions Together.

Very often as well, one of the things the training sessions try to do is alert managers to their responsibility to keep a very close, observant eye on what's going on in their environment, so that if they see that there is a likely conflict brewing between employees, they try to intervene at a very early stage. I think this kind of proactive taking of responsibility by managers is one of the big successes we've had.

Again, it's a case of awareness training, because people might use language that's offensive to other people without recognizing it; they might tell jokes that are offensive and not realize that this isn't 1946, that kind of thing. It really is trying to sensitize people in an environment, so that they will act in some sense, outside the parameters of the policy, just to do the right thing.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Yes. Having worked in the workforce before, I realize that what may be offensive to me may not be offensive to someone else or vice versa.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Exactly.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

People have to be aware of that.

[Audrey O'Brien]

I think Kathryn has something to add on alternatives.

[Kathryn Butler Malette]

Just to add to what Madam O'Brien said, we do offer mediation. The coordinator will offer, in many instances, mediation between—let's say it's two employees, let's say it's an employee and a manager. Often just putting those elements on the table, with a mediator to encourage that open discussion, dispels the conflict. It clarifies positions, or comments, or whatever.

As I say, we don't have many instances of harassment so mainly it's conflict resolution, which of course could lead to other things, but we find the mediation that we do internally very effective.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Yes. It's because you get to it soon enough that it probably counts as a means of prevention.

What about the library? Do you want to say anything or make a comment?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

We adopt similar approaches. I think the dialogue and the awareness are what we favour. When you have conflicts between individuals, you have to talk about them to understand where the conflicts come from and how it's being perceived.

In terms of our methods, we do support facilitation, mediation, but also trying to understand what is the root cause of the conflict. Sometimes it's in the workplace and sometimes it is not. Our employees may be subject to pressures that are not related to the workplace but that come out in the workplace. Understanding where it comes from is helpful.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Unfortunately, I have to interrupt you. Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Ms. Sgro. You have seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Welcome to all of you, again, especially Ms. O'Brien. We've worked for a very long time together.

How many people are you actually responsible for, Ms. O'Brien? How many do you oversee?

[Audrey O'Brien]

There are about 1,800 full-time employees, and with contracting and term employees....

[Kathryn Butler Malette]

There are probably 2,000 or more.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Maybe a little over 2,000—2,200 in all.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

About 2,200. How many complaints have been brought to your attention through different processes in the last five years, let's say?

[Audrey O'Brien]

In the last five years there have been no cases that have had to come up to my....

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

They would have been resolved at the FST, Finding Solutions Together.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Yes, or the human resources level.