Evidence of meeting #51 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Audrey O'Brien  Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Sonia L'Heureux  Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament
Kathryn Butler Malette  Chief Human Resources Officer, Human Resources, Corporate Planning and Communications , House of Commons
Jacqueline Rigg  Director General, Civilian Human Resources Management Operations, Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources Civilian), Department of National Defence
Karol Wenek  Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Tony Crewe  Director Human Rights and Diversity, Assistant Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Mark Gendron  Director of Law Military Personnel, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Department of National Defence

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Oh, okay.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

I have to interrupt you, Ms. Ambler. Unfortunately, your time is up.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Okay.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Thank you.

We will now move on to Ms. Ashton, who will have seven minutes.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you very much for returning to answer more of our questions.

Mr. Wenek, I want to pick up on the story that you shared just a moment ago, particularly the aspect of the disciplinary action. As you noted, the complete relief of duties took place as a result of this complaint. How important do you think that was in sending a strong message to the members of the forces?

9:55 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

Well, Madam Chair, I think that those kind of exemplary disciplinary proceedings are important in that they signal a shift in the culture. Whereas previously that kind of behaviour might have been accepted, it indicated that it was clearly no longer acceptable.

In fact, that's part of the basic lesson that is drilled into new members of the armed forces, that they have a responsibility to correct or report, as appropriate, any observed harassment, and that they have a duty to take action if they have the authority to do so, as well as encourage others to take action if they feel that they require that form of support.

It's all those kinds of things that contribute to a change in the behavioural norms within an organization.

10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Obviously, the RCMP and Department of National Defence are different organizations that face different and unique life-threatening situations on a day-to-day basis. Mr. Wenek, or others among our visitors, I'm wondering if you have any recommendations based on the work that DND has done that you might share with an organization like the RCMP, given the similarities—obviously there are differences—in the kind of work they do.

10 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

Madam Chair, I think one of the biggest assets a formally hierarchical organization, such as the Canadian Forces, has is its ability to regulate the behaviour of its members, which is reinforced by the code of service discipline. I'm not entirely familiar with what the RCMP have or whether they have something similar, but it gives institutional leaders really all the authority they need to change behaviour in whatever direction they choose. Without this, it may be difficult in some circumstances to achieve the required change, but I think it has to be a foundational piece.

10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

You spoke in your last presentation about the importance of alternative dispute resolution mechanisms. Would you say it would be an important avenue to pursue?

10 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

I believe it is. Our experience has shown that it's been very successful for us. It also preserves or assists in preserving the teamwork and cohesion necessary to the function of that kind of organization. The idea is to use discipline and punishment when necessary, but to the extent possible to use less formal means that preserve the working nature of the organization and preserve the social relations as well.

10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

You have three minutes left.

10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Very good.

Because this is actually a gap in what we heard from the RCMP, I am wondering about the absence of an interest in alternative dispute resolution mechanisms. Something we've heard from various organizations is that it's an effective way of dealing with harassment and with setting a tone that makes clear that harassment is unacceptable.

Could you elaborate a little and maybe give us an example of an alternative dispute resolution that is often used and indicate why you believe it works well?

10 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

I may defer that question to Commander Crewe, since he has a little more familiarity with that process.

10 a.m.

Cdr Tony Crewe Director Human Rights and Diversity, Assistant Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Thank you.

In the ADR process, as we mentioned before, it's always the intent to try to resolve at the lowest level. When a member comes in to a dispute resolution centre and seeks these services, one of the first things that will be asked is whether the member has approached the chain of command with the issue. If the answer is no, they'll discuss why not and perhaps steer the member back to the supervisor. If there is an issue with the supervisor, then that supervisor has a boss and it should be routed that way.

The ADR practitioners have a few different methods at their disposal. They will act as a neutral third party and get both sides of the issue together. If there's more than one person on each side, they'll try to get them all together to discuss it and try to resolve the issue before it becomes formal, before it becomes a grievance or a human rights complaint, so that, as Mr. Wenek said, we can try to keep the workplace social fabric from being torn apart by the issue.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you for sharing that.

Mr. Wenek, you referred to the Maclean's article and the attention that was given to sexual harassment. How long did it take for the military to act to address those very serious issues?

10:05 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

I think the initial changes, Madam Chair, occurred within the year. I think the story came out in early 1998, and before the end of 1998 this hotline was set up.

The CDS had issued directives to look at our policy and procedures. We moved very quickly on this. I think that's an important issue as well for signalling change. You can't take a long time to address it. You have to develop a few critical objectives, set some realistic but urgent timelines for them, and then move very quickly to implement those changes.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Thank you.

We will now move on to Mr. Aspin. You have seven minutes.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses, and thank you again for returning to answer our questions.

Mr. Wenek, you mentioned the Five Eyes. We have been made aware that a recent international comparison of women in armed forces portrayed the Canadian Forces as among the leaders in integration of women.

To what do you attribute this relative success in integrating women within the Canadian Forces?

10:05 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

It's a very difficult question, Madam Chair, but I'll attempt to give an answer.

I think it's not just on the integration of women that Canada is perceived to be ahead of the issue. I think in a number of areas of social change, such as the acceptance of homosexuals into the military and other social policy issues, the Canadian military has usually been close to the front of the pack on these issues.

While I would certainly like to say this was due to the initiative of the leadership that would be to misrepresent the issue, I think the major factor in the Canadian Forces achieving this kind of leadership role has been the influence of the law on social change. In that respect, I think the work that Parliament does in terms of establishing laws for fair employment practices is critical. I think the leadership then does its duty and complies with what the country and the law expects them to do. In that respect, I think the charter, the Canadian Human Rights Act, and the Employment Equity Act, have been key drivers of social changes in the Canadian military.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you.

What role, if any, do you believe the standard for harassment and racism prevention training has played in achieving this success?

10:05 a.m.

Director General Military Personnel, Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Karol Wenek

Madam Chair, I'll answer the first part of the question, then I'll ask Commander Crewe to flesh it out with a bit more detail. I think what the training did was establish very quickly a common frame of reference for all members of the Canadian Forces and departmental employees as well in that this was obligatory training for all members serving at the time. In other words, we weren't going to do this in a phased approach and wait five, six, seven years as new people came through the system to be exposed to this.

In other words, we'd do a sweeping across the board change by making everybody take the training within a certain period of time. Then everybody would be on the same page. Everybody would know what the norms are. Then we would let a different process, routinize—if I can use that word—this training, as new members joined the organization. I think it did play an important role.

Tony, I'll ask you to add to that.

10:05 a.m.

Director Human Rights and Diversity, Assistant Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Cdr Tony Crewe

All I can do is echo that it's setting out the awareness so that every single member is aware of what the policy states, what is acceptable, and going through some examples of issues that may have come up or that could come up so that there is some sort of idea of what's reasonable, and what's not reasonable. Then it's embedding that very same training into every basic course and every level of leadership training within the military since then, so that new people are getting the same information and leaders are refreshed as they go through their promotions and through the ranks.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Okay, thank you.

The committee understands that the ombudsman's office may make recommendations to appropriate officials within the department or the forces. Can you advise the committee on whether any of these have addressed sexual harassment?