Yes.
Evidence of meeting #53 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #53 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A video is available from Parliament.
9 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Yes.
9 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Then what happens once it goes to the minister or the Chief of the Defence Staff?
9 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Once again we will provide our recommendation from an external, independent point of view, and then they have to decide if they'll implement those recommendations or what they'll do with them.
In some cases they see the problem slightly differently, and they come up with a resolution that is slightly different but that provides satisfaction to the complainant. In some cases they are wholly in agreement with our recommendation. In others they say we're full of it, that they don't think it works, and their legal adviser tells them they cannot do what we're recommending.
9 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
You mentioned the numbers can sometimes be wide, but then it can boil down to maybe just three of the same people complaining about harassment.
I was wondering if you have occasions when the same person was always being harassed by the same harasser, or do you find that sometimes it can boil down to just a couple?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Once in a while the same person keeps coming back. We work to try to improve the work environment by talking to the supervisor, the commanding officer, or the base commander to try to have the person moved from their work environment to another place, and in most cases it works. It's only in a unique, special case that it doesn't.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
In that case you wouldn't have to implement different disciplines for that person; you would just have to move him to another area.
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Once again, we only make recommendations. We cannot tell them what to do and how to do it.
We'll talk with them. We'll find the best way to do it. We need their agreement to be able to move forward to a positive solution in most cases.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
The committee understands that you receive many cases in your office. Does your office maintain statistics on what categories of complaints are received?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Yes, we do.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Can you tell the committee what portion of these complaints dealt with harassment in general or sexual harassment in particular?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
In my opening remarks a couple of weeks ago, there was an addendum to the document. There was a small table that showed all of the harassment cases we have had in the last six years. Out of those harassment cases, there was another column showing sexual harassment. If you take last year as an example, you see 65 harassment cases, and out of those there were three sexual harassment cases. It was annex A that I provided to the committee.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Please indicate at what point in the complaint process information and services become available. I'm referring to services for counselling, brochures, and special training. When along the way are they provided? Is it early, soon after they come there to work, or is it later? How often do you have your training?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Do you mean personal training within the organization?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We have it throughout their years, especially for those we call the intake officers, those who receive the complaint. It's part of their professional development, and throughout the years they all go on specific training or refresher training to be able to be a first respondent.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Gauthier, for making time in your schedule to come back so we can ask a few further questions.
The annex that you provided to us when you were here before shows that there were 375 harassment cases logged in that period of time, 64 in 2006-2007 and 65 in 2011-2012. It seems pretty consistent in and around the level of complaints. Out of those, 21 were sexual harassment cases. Can you give us a bit of an idea of how those were resolved? Were they consistently from any particular group over another? Were they all females who were complaining? Were there others who were complaining on sexual harassment? What details can you give us so we can get a better picture of just who's coming forward?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
When you look at sexual harassment, you will see that our ratio is fairly similar to what the CF and DND have as a ratio. It's a fairly high ratio of women being sexually harassed. Of course, our number, if you look at the 375, does not necessarily match with the number of the Canadian Forces or DND, because we provide different services. We have as many in six years as they've had in ten years. Lots of people come, but they are very reluctant to continue with a formal complaint based on all kinds of issues. Out of that number, it is sometimes concerning to see what the effect is on people, especially sexual harassment.
In a very recent case we had, the lady decided to quit the organization instead of going forward with a formal complaint. It's very hard for us to do anything, because we're bound by oaths of confidentiality, and unless the member decides or gives us the ability to move forward and explain her case to the department and try to do something, there's nothing we can do to assist that member.
She has left the organization because, from her point of view, it was the only viable solution she could choose. She felt that if she moved a complaint forward, reprisal on her would have been so high that it would have been worse than the existing condition, worse than tolerating the sexual harassment.
Delays are also a significant concern brought by constituents. If I bring a complaint forward, it will take an average of 90 days, if not more, to get a resolution. That period of 90 days is going to be very hard on the person and, in most cases, that person is now seen as an administrative problem for the organization. We've seen cases of people being posted administratively out of the organization because it was too much of an administrative burden to deal with those individuals. They didn't fit. Retribution is a huge thing. Delays are a huge thing.
The consequence if people are found guilty of sexual harassment is also minor. Mr. Wenek clearly mentioned that in most cases the consequence is a refresher training on harassment. It's one-day training. They use the public service course that is mandatory for most supervisors anyway. They have to go on the training. The one who has been identified as doing sexual harassment is going on a one-day training. Is it worth it for people to bring that complaint forward when they know at the end of the day the person will go on a one-day course?
It's all those concerns that force people to remain anonymous and not move forward with their complaints. Consequences are tragic in many cases.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
I agree with you when it comes to people going forward. I don't think people go forward lightly, whether it's harassment or sexual harassment. I don't think these are things that people go forward with lightly. There are significant repercussions, whether they are from your team you immediately work with or elsewhere, just saying not to pay any attention to it or whatever. I don't think people come forward lightly with this.
Bill C-15 is currently before the House. What can we do? Do you have any suggestions for improvements to strengthen that particular legislation?
9:10 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I think the biggest piece is the fear of reprisal. I'm not sure how you can include something to enforce consequences if there's reprisal. If we look at the civilian piece, we see the public service employee survey was done in 2011. In there, question 43 is very specific to reprisal for a public service employee using the system and for DND. If you look at that piece, the question reads:I feel I can initiate a formal recourse process (grievance, complaint, appeal) without fear of reprisal.
DND scored 50% positive answers. That means 50% were negative answers, so half the people fear using existing mechanisms. On the CF side, it's the same. They do a survey every three years called “Your-Say”. The 2009 survey asked exactly the same question, and it was 52%.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Can you just clarify that for us? That was the 2009 survey that was done by DND.
9:10 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
It was done by the Canadian Forces.
