Evidence of meeting #53 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
No. We have no ability to assess that person.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Would you have an ability, though, to talk to or consult with the department on what things they can do or change to improve—
9:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The only thing we try to do is to guide the person to the right place. Our first respondent would have little knowledge about the discipline and the legal piece on that side. There's very little we could do for that person when he or she calls us.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
That's very interesting.
I'd like to ask you about what you were saying with regard to going from 19 stations down to four stations as alternative dispute mechanisms. Am I correct?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Yes.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
How is that going to happen? I mean, why from 9 to four? How are you going to be servicing people?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Alternative dispute resolution is under the responsibility of the chief of military personnel. That's a decision that he took as part of the reduction of the deficit. I think alternative dispute resolution, from their point of view, is a mandatory service we provide to civil servants, but it's not mandated by law for the military, so they're significantly reducing the size of it. They decide how they're going to spread it throughout the various bases. My understanding is that there are going to be four bases left with the given service.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Thank you.
Ms. Young, your time is up.
I will now give the floor to Ms. Day, for five minutes.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Gauthier, thank you for joining us today.
The more I listen to the witnesses, the more difficult the situation seems to be. Your service was created in 1998 to promote open-mindedness and transparency within the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence. But as we know, the ombudsman can provide opinions, but cannot impose anything.
I am really at a loss because we have the Canadian Forces, the National Defence, the grievances within the army and the procedures to deal with it all. At the end of the day, isn't there a certain code of silence that, by the time the information gets to you, it has been sanitized and you don't really get the real numbers on harassment and sexual harassment?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The figures that I have are from people who call in. I only see the number of people who call the office to ask for information or help. We keep in touch with the people from the Canadian Forces and we have a good relationship with them. We can look at their numbers and see that, in many cases, their numbers are different from ours.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
It is relatively significant and, as I explained, it is because of fear of reprisal. People call us, ask a lot of questions and, then, they decide not to go ahead with the process because they do not feel capable of going through it for two years. They feel that it would be too difficult, that the harassment would only become worse and that, at any rate, it would practically not make a difference.
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Certainly.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Can people get information from the website about harassment or sexual harassment?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Often, when they call us, we direct them to the National Defence or the Canadian Forces website because the instructions and regulations are posted on the website and they are kept up to date. We try not to post outdated information on our website. We always refer individuals to the site that has updated information.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I personally often consult popular sites, when I am looking for a house or I want to post an ad, for example. You can figure out how many people consult those sites. It is automatically counted on the site. Do you do that? That would give you an idea of the number of people who consult your site about sexual harassment or harassment.
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The communications section has some data. My group does not monitor the website. We have data, but they are certainly not specific. We are not able to separate them and determine whether a person visited the site to find out about harassment, compensation or a transfer. We do not have that degree of detail.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
You also don’t have data about visits on the site related to post-traumatic stress?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
No.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
We have a provincial ombudsman. His mandate is partly to make recommendations, but those recommendations have a rather broad scope. When he asks a department to make adjustments, the department usually complies. Departments do not like to receive any recommendations because that means that there was a complaint, which in itself denotes some sort of flaw.
Do you have that type of relationship with the Canadian Forces and National Defence?
9:30 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The ombudsman’s mandate was established based on a departmental directive. In fact, the Minister of National Defence decided to create the office of the ombudsman and set up its own directive. It was not done through legislation, the way it is for other independent organizations.
As for National Defence, there are three independent organizations. There is the Canadian Forces Grievance Board, which was formed under the National Defence Act. So there are legislative provisions to that effect. The MPCC is also covered under the act. The third outside organization is not. That is our office. We do our work under a mandate from the minister.
About one month and a half ago, a very interesting event took place. It was the International Conference of Ombudsman Institutions for the Armed Forces. This year, the fourth edition was held in Canada. Representatives from 25 foreign countries came to share the lessons they have learned. It was interesting to see the wide spectrum of authority delegated to various ombudsman offices. In some cases, there was no authority or just the authority of a simple figurehead, whereas in other cases, the organizations were able to make decisions that the government or the authority in question implemented. I think that we are somewhere in the middle, closer to making recommendations. That is where we are at right now with our mandate.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Thank you, Ms. Day. Your time is up.
It is Ms. Bateman's turn. You have five minutes.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Gauthier, thank you for joining us once again. We still have a few questions for you.
This morning, you said that, sometimes, a large number of complaints is a sign that an organization is healthy.
How do we make that happen?
What is the recipe?
As you must have heard in all the questions, people feel that a large number of complaints is an indication that there are problems. But you said that the facts suggest otherwise.
9:35 a.m.
Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
When I looked at the statistics on harassment, I did a study. I looked at the number of complaints received by the office over the past two years. When I added them up, I got a total of 134 harassment complaints in the past two years.
I separated the complaints into different categories to see how many complainants came from the regular forces, the reserves, cadets, civilians and family members, meaning all our constituents. I then separated the complaints according to bases and the gender of complainants to see where they were coming from. Actually, almost exclusively, most of the complaints came from the Bagotville and Valcartier bases.
I discussed the matter with the ombudsman because it was contrary to our perception. Last year, he went to Bagotville and Valcartier. He found that the work atmosphere was excessively pleasant and that the relationship between employees and the chain of command was effective. The conclusion that we came to is that people are not afraid to file a harassment complaint if they feel that they are subject to harassment. That is why we have received a higher number of complaints. It is explained by the fact that they are not afraid of reprisal.
So, if we are simply relying on the number of complaints, we get a distorted picture. There are other bases in Canada from which we receive no complaints. But we know that there are problems. We hear about them. The members call us and tell us which base they are from. It is out of the question for them to take up the problem with their chain of command because they know it would affect their careers.