Status of Women Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Jean-François Fleury]

The school could provide statistics on that breakdown. I would just caution that the school is one provider that a department can use. We feel that departments always have a more comprehensive picture of how they choose to meet their learning strategies and who they choose to use as the supplier. For example, there is the joint learning program—I believe it was discussed earlier with the TBS and PSAC—that offers very relevant training on this subject matter as well. This school is sort of one piece of the picture.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Sure. The data we would be interested in is specifically around the programming that includes anti-sexual harassment training. Could you provide us with the breakdown of which departments have accessed, obviously, the training you offer? Your point is well taken in terms of other training they may be using.

That would be very helpful. Thank you very much.

I am also wondering if, through your work, you are aware of a correlation between departments whose employees take the training and a lower or higher level of sexual harassment complaints that come out?

[Jean-François Fleury]

From the school's perspective, we focus on offering the best possible and most relevant learning. We don't extend into correlations or analysis of departmental behaviours. The departments would definitely be in a better position to do the correlations between training and their harassment levels.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Unfortunately, the incidences of sexual harassment are delicate, obviously, for many people to come forward with them, and the data is often challenging to come by, but one thing we've heard from many witnesses is that in workplaces where there is greater awareness and training, not only might there be a likelihood of there being less harassment, but people also feel more comfortable to come forward.

One of the things we've noted is that in the area of sexual harassment, it would be important to have maybe even Status of Women, which obviously has a vested interest in seeing women in the federal service be better off, take that kind of leadership in coming up with that kind of data. As you point out, in terms of the data and the ability to mark the correlations, and to take action accordingly, that capacity is just simply not there, unfortunately.

Does the Canada School of Public Service have certain mechanisms put in place to measure the effectiveness of your training with respect to harassment?

[Jean-François Fleury]

We have a very rigorous system in place to measure the effectiveness of our products. Evaluations are done after each offering to ensure that the objectives were met, that the instructor was effective, that the content was right. Every time a course is delivered, if there is something from that particular course that didn't resonate well with those who took it, we take corrective action.

In addition to that, we review our curriculum annually to look at the high-performing courses and the lower-performing courses in order to adjust and in order to identify gaps in the curriculum where there could be new products. It's a very organic curriculum. Although most of the products have been in the curriculum for a long time, a certain percentage will always fluctuate, pending priorities.

In addition to that, we always work with the Treasury Board Secretariat policy leads and the communities as a whole. The HR community is a very active community. We're part of that community and consult them regularly to ensure that the suite of offerings we have meet the needs of essentially the departments and the department heads.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

The Treasury Board came up with a new policy just recently around sexual harassment. I'm wondering if you were involved in shaping that policy.

[Jean-François Fleury]

From a learning perspective, every time there's a new policy we're involved, but we're involved especially to be aware of it so that we can ensure our instructors are aware of it and our materials are up to date as soon as the policy is put in place.

We don't set policy—that's the Treasury Board—but we are part of the process. Early awareness of policy changes is key for the school in order to prepare and deliver the best possible training in a timely way.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

You're obviously party to a great deal of feedback based on the training you have. One would think that feedback would be useful in shaping effective policy. Do you share with Treasury Board the feedback you get from the employees you train, or did you in the case of shaping this policy?

[Jean-François Fleury]

The feedback we get and the evaluations we get definitely are part of the school's interventions in these conversations. For example, if we feel that a particular course is not resonating well, the community will know of this particular issue. We'll try to make sure that the future offerings meet those needs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

So you don't have that conversation with Treasury Board in terms of maybe an area that...not just in terms of the effectiveness of the course, because obviously that's your prerogative. But if your school sees an emerging concern around harassment, for example, does that information get back to Treasury Board?

[Jean-François Fleury]

It does in an informal way, because we have discussions with them regularly. It's not an isolated one-year conversation. We're active in the HR community.

As I said, our feedback would be one of many from departments, the community, and the labour relations specialists within departments.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Unfortunately, I will have to stop you there. Thank you.

We will continue this round of questions with Ms. Bateman.

You have seven minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for joining us once again. Your work is really very important for the public service and for our study.

I have so many questions. What you're doing is huge. It is so important. As a former manager in the public service of Canada, I understood the importance. It was my job to ensure that I had a respectful workplace, that I contributed to that, both up and down, which I think we've heard numerous times.

I'm also a chartered accountant, and I'm looking at your market. You have a ballpark number of 250,000 public servants. You have a culture at the top that says you value a respectful workplace, and you're certainly contributing to that. Yet you're saying—correct me if I'm wrong—3,000 public servants have attended the Creating a Respectful Workplace course. That's your highest participation for the anti-harassment course.

[Jean-François Fleury]

Yes. For promoting a respectful workplace, in the more general products that we have for managers, that is our most popular product.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay. So there were 3,000. There are 142 specialists who investigate, so that's understandably somewhat lower, and then 243 for Managing Harassment Complaints.

I'm just curious. If I were sitting in your spot, I'd sit back and say, here's my potential market—250,000—and here's my achieved market—300,000—so how do I grow my market? You can only offer this if you offer it on a cost-effective basis, if you're giving the managers what they need and if you're giving the employees what they need. I'm really curious about how you do that.

[Jean-François Fleury]

These courses here are the courses that are the most precisely linked to this study. Most of our leadership and professional development courses include values and ethics, values-based leadership, and creating a respectful workplace. We feel, as a school, that this number is not as high as it could be, but the notion of a respectful workplace and values-based leadership is a key driver in the way we develop most or all of our other offerings as well.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Do you use the findings in the public service? Do you regularly refresh the documentation you're providing and the experts you use to hone the courses?

[Jean-François Fleury]

Yes, we do.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

So you're constantly refreshing?

[Jean-François Fleury]

Every year we go through an exercise in which we look at the curriculum and have an evergreening process to ensure that it's up to date and that it meets the needs now.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

So let's say I'm a manager in Winnipeg, Manitoba, I've worked with some colleagues, and we can get 24 people in the classroom: how do you figure out...? I mean, obviously the cost of developing the module is a sunk cost, but you're going to spread that over your total recapture. How do you develop your costs?

[Jean-François Fleury]

In this particular case, the cost is already set because we have an idea of how many people we expect to take a course, and we amortize that. In this particular case, the regional point of service would meet with the manager in Winnipeg and organize a particular offering for this product in a location in Winnipeg.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

You clearly have competition in this business, I know, as a public servant. Clearly, you're not capturing the market. We're hearing from Treasury Board that there's an expectation that everybody get some training as soon as they're hired. We have 250,000 people, ballpark, and you have 3,000 who have taken your course.

As a public servant myself, I worked in a department where every year we had a session on creating a respectful workplace. It wasn't optional. We had it every year and the whole department had to be in there. If you were away on business, you had to figure out another time. It wasn't the public service school that provided that training, I don't believe, and it was pretty cost-effective, I think, because they came right to the department. It was a relatively small department.

How are you dealing with the competition? Everybody has to deal with the competition.

[Jean-François Fleury]

That is a very accurate statement.

This particular curriculum is one facet of it. In other particular areas, the school is used more predominantly. As mentioned earlier, some departments can choose to develop in-house methodologies to do a culture change and a behaviour change within their organization and/or use the school.

We do have the flexibility of offering tailored learning to a particular department and to come into a department and offer those services as well. Often when we do that, it's less on one particular theme or one particular product, but it's more an organization that identifies various different themes.... We package a slate of courses that we can come in with and tailor to the department's needs.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We just had two individuals present to us who were representing more of a union framework. The lady representing the Canadian Labour Congress indicated that they do not train managers. Now, obviously, all managers still pay union dues, so how do we as a public service support those managers with the right tools? Their union, which they're paying the dues to clearly.... I mean, the lady said they do not train them.

The moment a person becomes a manager...how do you work with public service management or directors to ensure those managers have the tools they need to ensure a respectful workplace?