Status of Women Committee on Oct. 25th, 2011

[Charmaine Borg, NDP, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Okay, you are Franco-Ontarian. That's very good too.

The reason why I am mentioning this is because we are not going to hear from a Quebec witness, unfortunately.

Studies show that only six CHSLDs in Quebec were ranked at 90% or more when they had an inspection. Standards are clearly a problem in long-term care institutions.

In your opinion, would a federal system of standards be a practical and effective solution? Could a system like that ensure that long-term care facilities meet specific standards?

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

You bring up a very good point. We have also raised it in our report. There are no national standards. It varies from province to province.

We have also noticed something else. In long-term care establishments, various types of people are hired. They are not trained to provide care to seniors. In addition, they have different ideas. For example, when we travelled across the country, we were told that those institutions hire people from various ethnic groups that don't necessarily have the same attitude towards seniors as other people. We were told it was a problem.

The short answer to your question is yes, standards should be put in place. It is certainly something that the federal, provincial and territorial committee should look into. That being said, we always go back to the issue of jurisdiction: it is provincial, not federal.

But elder abuse is still prevalent across the country. One province is not worse than another. So yes, we should have standards. We should perhaps take a closer look at this issue.

[Charmaine Borg, NDP, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I will yield the rest of my time to Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

Just following up on that, with standardization, could it be done through federal legislation? For example, through renegotiating the Canada Health Act, perhaps...? I don't know if you have an opinion.

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

I don't know. I'm not an expert on that. Our approach in our reports—and we tell this to ministers—is that there's absolutely no area the federal government can't go into.

It depends on how you negotiate with the province or how you say “here's the role of the federal government in this matter”. We do not make a distinction between federal or provincial in our recommendations. We just say, “Here's what the federal government could do”.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I notice, Ms. James, that in recommendation three, you say that there needs to be “training and ongoing support for various professional and service-provider communities” in justice. I don't know if you could elaborate on that.

I've heard in my research that when it comes to prosecuting crimes of elder abuse, it's not that the Criminal Code is insufficient, but rather that the cases themselves are being neglected due to ageism or neglect, or just not doing the right process for someone who is elderly. I don't know if you could speak to your concrete recommendations on that.

[Krista James]

Part of what I'm speaking to in that recommendation is that people working in different sectors are often the front-line people. If an older woman has gone into a place where she's reaching out for assistance--it may be at a bank, in a hospital where she presents with injuries, or even when someone makes a call to police--these sectors are well positioned to offer support and to refer the woman to the right people who can actually help.

At the front lines in these sectors, there's often a lack of awareness of who in the community might be the most helpful to this woman. It really depends on the community you're in as to what kind of resources a woman might be able to get access to.

All those sectors have made improvements over the last few years in understanding elder abuse and the abuse of older women as a phenomenon, but we need to move forward as well.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Soulière, you mentioned that police departments aren't well enough equipped to deal with reports of abuse when they do increase. We know they're probably under-reported, so perhaps you could talk about why they're under-equipped.

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

It's like anything else. I don't know if I put it in those terms, but the point is that in a lot of police departments across the country there's no specific group to deal with matters of elder abuse.

In certain police departments, like the Ottawa one--and there are three or four places in Canada--there are specific people who are trained to deal with the issue. Are there enough people? The standard answer is that there are never enough people to deal with these issues. Everyone will tell you that.

Speaking to the previous question, one of the things we found was that the legal system is so complex it scares certain older people from complaining and from going before the courts. They are scared of the system. So one of the things we mentioned in our report is to try to simplify this and make it more accessible for older people. As we heard, a lot of people were so scared of the legal system that they didn't complain about their abuse.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to Ms. O'Neill Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

As we all know here, this is a very important topic that's dear to all of us. Our government, as you have said, has been reaching and looking for ways to help our elderly.

We also know that, as you mentioned, those advertisements had a great effect on people. At the same time, there are many people in the neighbourhood who know about the abuse that is going on. You mentioned that the elders are afraid to report abuse because of having to go to court, but sometimes we have community members who are even more afraid to get involved.

Is there some means by which they could be assured that all of this is confidential, and a way in which they could know how to go about it...? That is probably what I am interested about. I'm interested in hearing those kinds of ideas in my constituency.

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

It's hard to comment on that, in the sense that if you know an older person is being abused, why don't you report it? People in certain communities simply don't want to do it; they don't want to get involved.

Everything is confidential when you go to the police and you report. Certainly they don't go out and publish your name, saying that you're the one who reported it. This is kept confidential. If you go to report financial abuse, there are certain banks that are doing excellent work in providing information to older Canadians on scams. Of course, you hear almost every day of older people being gypped out of their money through these telephone or computer scams or what have you.

Is there a solution to this? The government can't do everything. You need community involvement. This is where information and awareness become part of the solution.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you have a comment, Krista?

[Krista James]

Yes, if I may. For me, that hearkens back to our recommendation number five. People in communities who are concerned need practical information on locally available resources.

I think often people care about the older person in their community, but it's hard to take that step forward when you actually don't know what to offer by way of assistance. Sometimes all you can offer is a listening ear and, actually, that can be a lot.

The key message that I often like to put out is that sometimes it's appropriate to report, but reporting isn't always the right solution. Sometimes the right solution is to have the older person over for coffee, talk about how they're doing, and see if you can find ways to be a friendly neighbour and offer resources in your community. A friendly neighbour strategy like that could be a tremendous strategy nationally.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

That's very true.

Quite often in communities we see things like that happening. There are a lot of communities that have socials for seniors, as we know, and it's something that they certainly enjoy. Those kinds of measures are certainly well taken care of and money put into those events is certainly a plus for all.

Do you think there are any gaps in the Criminal Code with respect to elder abuse?

[Krista James]

Yes and no. My perspective is that elder abuse is not a single Criminal Code crime...so that legislation generally applies to a victim and an offender regardless of age. We have noticed that there's an absence of discussion about the age of victim in terms of sentencing, so maybe there could be consideration of whether age-related vulnerability is an aggravating factor in terms of sentencing. There's a wide discretion for the judiciary in terms of sentencing, however, so....

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

Again, when we went out to discuss this matter across the country, it was a split between those who felt the Criminal Code was sufficient to deal with the situation and those who said, no, we need special measures in the code. We didn't make any specific recommendations except to say to do research in this area.

I understand that the government is putting forth some recommendations to deal with this. I just heard this entre les branches, but I don't know what these recommendations would be or what changes are being proposed.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I listened with interest to the recommendations you've put forth. I'm wondering if there's any one recommendation that's easier to implement than any other, or is there one that's really difficult and that you have a hard time seeing being implemented in the community?

[Jean-Guy Soulière]

There are a lot of recommendations.

I come back to the first one: awareness and information. That's number one.

Then comes giving sufficient resources to deal with it, and training. Maybe there should be a national forum of police officers on elder abuse, to deal with the situation across the country; that might be another idea of how to deal with it.

Of course, speaking with older people and finding out what's going on out there.... We had the front-line people, the volunteers working with older Canadians, give us some anecdotal stuff you wouldn't believe. It's in the report what we heard. It's very interesting.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Can you think of anything else to add, Krista?

[Krista James]

In terms of prioritizing recommendations, I think one of the easiest steps is to map out existing resources. Resources change, so that needs to be maintained. That becomes a challenge. Providing a road map of all the different resources available in different communities.... We've tried to do that nationally, but you want to get kind of infinitely specific in terms of looking at specific communities, because a national organization sometimes is not going to be helpful to somebody in Prince Edward Island, for example. You need to help people map out what's available in their communities and keep those organizations going.

I agree with Mr. Soulière that we need to hear more stories and understand abuse better, especially in terms of different kinds of communities where women are further marginalized for other reasons. But I think that's also challenging for different reasons: how do we gather that information in a respectful and useful manner? Going into communities and asking for information is a delicate undertaking, but we need to understand the problem in order to craft--and to help communities craft--solutions that are workable.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

That's my time.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

Thank you very much.

At this point, before I turn to Ms. Sgro, I do want to note that we'll be going until 4:30, but I understand, Ms. James, you have a flight to catch, so whenever you have to excuse yourself, please do so.

Before you do leave, I'd like to thank you on behalf of our whole committee, but I do understand you have a few moments with us, so I'd like to turn to Ms. Sgro.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I will ask Ms. James a question first.

Thank you very much for being here.

I was reading with quite a lot of interest about Nova Scotia and the very aggressive way they have chosen to be an example for all of Canada in regard to how they deal with the issues of abuse of the elderly. They've done so to the point where they've made it mandatory to report abuse or the concern that people should have about seniors.

Is there a reason that the other provinces haven't followed suit in regard to Nova Scotia? Or again, is the concern that the law is the area that is best to deal with issues of abuse of the elderly?

[Krista James]

I will answer that with quite a bit of speculation on my part, but I think some jurisdictions have not followed the route of Nova Scotia because they don't think that's the ideal approach to take. Some groups will say that mandatory reporting is the best route to take: put a positive obligation on everyone to report. It requires a robust infrastructure to respond to that reporting.

A lot of people would say that mandatory reporting is not the ideal response, that the ideal response is to provide resources and support to the older person who is a victim or in danger, and reporting doesn't necessarily result in any of those things going to the older person. Mandatory reporting can sometimes only amount to things like breach of privacy and a lot of intrusion on the older person's life. That's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing in terms of positive impact.