Evidence of meeting #72 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was home.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Marlene Sandoval
Ron Swain  National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Julian Morelli  Communications Director, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Rolanda Manitowabi  As an Individual
Jennifer Courchene  As an Individual

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Sir, as a former school trustee in the Winnipeg School Division, I can personally attest to the number of women and children who were flung away from reserve homes and thrown into the city. It's the largest school division in Manitoba. Of the 34,000 children we took care of, 25% were aboriginal, and of those, a very high percentage were people who had been turfed and dispossessed of all their rights to remain on the reserve. So I really respect your passion and your willingness to try to move forward.

I want to get your response again. You were talking about the protection of women suffering violence and your frustrations as a law enforcement officer. In your testimony you made a couple of comments. One was that you take the offender out. You also said the woman would then have rights to the home.

There has been much talk about shelters and how wonderful they are, but I think if I were an abused woman I'd rather have the home for my children, to maintain stability and a semblance of family upon the demise of the relationship, than be forced into a temporary shelter.

I'd like you to speak to those several points as well, sir.

11:45 a.m.

National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples

Ron Swain

I just finished being a police officer a few months ago.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB

You have 30 years of experience.

11:45 a.m.

National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples

Ron Swain

Every time we went to a first nations community, there was always a reluctance on the part of the police because there was this grey area.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Because there are no laws.

11:45 a.m.

National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples

Ron Swain

There's a void of legislation, or a void of authority, when it comes to domestic violence in first nations communities. It's very problematic for the police, because we're sitting there thinking.... You grab the person who is doing the offence, they're arrested, and they're put into the court process, or whatever that legal process is. Eventually, the person is released and they go right back to the home. The police are in a position of having to be very careful that the woman can get her stuff out and get out of the place, because there's no protection. That's totally different from non-first nations communities, where there is protection. And you're right, it's the protection of children. They feel most comfortable in their own home, around their own friends.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

I'm sorry to interrupt. Our time is up.

Thank you, Ms. Bateman.

Once again, I want to thank Mr. Morelli and Mr. Swain for being with us today at committee.

11:50 a.m.

National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples

Ron Swain

Thank you very much for having the opportunity to speak here.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Thank you.

I am now going to suspend the work of the committee and invite our next witnesses to take their places.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

We are now going to resume the meeting.

First, I would like to introduce our two witnesses. With us, we have Ms. Courchene and Ms. Manitowabi. Thank you for joining us.

You each have a maximum of 10 minutes for your presentations. After that, we will move to questions.

Ms. Manitowabi, the floor is yours.

April 30th, 2013 / 11:50 a.m.

Rolanda Manitowabi As an Individual

Thank you very much for allowing me to be here. I will share in a nutshell what my story is and my perspective.

In 2001 I entered into a relationship and shortly after we decided to build a home. The home was being built on his property. To try to protect my interests, I asked that the land be transferred in my name. My former partner produced a land transfer in January 2002 and gave it to me.

I began to finance the house construction. We moved in, in June 2002, and continued to work on the home. In 2003 I asked that my name be added to the house title. I had to, and I agreed, be liable for the outstanding loan, in addition to my own debts that I incurred, which were under my name, in constructing the house.

In 2005 my relationship was very strained, very clouded and complicated. There was a lot of conflict and stress. My former partner practised cultural ceremonies, helping others, and I supported him throughout. However, since 2001 he did not go back to work after his contract ended and I was paying all the bills, financially helping him to continue to help others, and supporting people seeking help. In 2005 he signed a quitclaim and handed over the title of the house and the loan to me, but it was never processed.

In 2006, after much torment, isolation, emotional and psychological abuse, illness, financial debt, and stress, I ended our relationship. I intended to stay in the house, and I was supporting him through an episode of illness. I tried negotiating, reasoning, coming up with some compromise, but he firmly stated all along that it was his house.

On January 1, 2007, my son and I were thrown out of the house. I had no place to go. I was in a crisis. I went to a shelter in a neighbouring town where I had sat on the board. The community was silent. Few people asked what had happened. When I went to move my belongings, people showed up to take appliances or offered to buy things from me. I was angered and humiliated, and I moved only what I could. I moved into my sister's house.

I carried on with my responsibilities of work, council duties, paying the debts, and I sought help. It seemed like no one wanted to help me or to deal with me. I was in a prolonged quiet crisis.

I learned in May 2008 that the land transfer I received in 2002 was actually amended that same day, and he had left with a copy that had only my name on that land transfer. I also learned later that the quitclaim was actually cancelled by him, which is why it was never processed.

Clearly I was not only taken advantage of, but I believe it was calculated since 2002. In December 2008 I filed a civil lawsuit. I didn't want to talk about family issues, culture, tradition, impacts on my son, as I was still dealing with all of this. I just wanted some of the money back, for which I had receipts, from building the house.

It took a while to find a lawyer to help. All first nations lawyers were in a conflict of interest. I filed representing myself, and later I found someone to help me. After much delay, stalling, and refusal to participate in mediation, we went to trial in July 2012, four years later.

I sought help to deal with the impacts, to help my son, and I'm doing better now in helping him since I have been able to deal with some of the issues myself.

At the court trial, my case for financial claim was presented. I had testimony for each receipt. I went through all of the receipts I had. His side was a real fiasco, with character references for traditional ways and repetitive messages from the judge about court processes. He had his two young nieces representing him. All I wanted from the court was some of my money back.

There was no jurisdiction, no guarantee of payment, even if there was a court order. The trial was going on every couple of days here and there from July to October 2012, and it was very frustrating. My emotions and mental state were high and low. I ended up taking time off work.

In October 2012 I settled for a lesser amount, just to stop this. I didn't want to hear any more about culture, tradition, or respect while sitting in a courtroom. I appreciate my responsibilities and the mistakes that I made in this relationship. I didn't want to be in a court with character references or such things. It was supposed to be about money to build a house and what I was owed if he kept the house.

In looking back, he threw out my son and I after I incurred the debt of building the home. Now I understand it was calculated since 2002, with the land transfer that he knew was amended that very same day. The traditional teachings didn't make sense to me in going through that whole court thing.

This legislation would have helped to determine share and occupancy, and it would have considered the impacts on my son. I hope it's available to help other women and children on reserves. I only had my family to turn to and I'm grateful for them.

Thank you.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Thank you, Madame Manitowabi.

Now I'll turn to Madame Courchene.

Ms. Courchene, you may begin your presentation, please.

Noon

Jennifer Courchene As an Individual

First of all, thank you for listening to my story. I'm really nervous. I've never told this story in front of so many people before.

My name is Jennifer Courchene. I have four kids. I'm a first nation woman from Sagkeeng First Nation, Manitoba.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

I'm sorry, Madame Courchene. If I can, I'll just ask you to just raise your voice a bit to make sure everybody hears you.

Thank you very much. Go ahead.

Noon

As an Individual

Jennifer Courchene

I'm here today to tell our story. It's not only my story; it's my children's and my story. I'm here today with the support and approval of my children. With that, I am only here to represent my kids, nobody else.

We currently reside in Winnipeg due to the fact that we're not able to live in our home in Sagkeeng. My children are 18, 11, and 8. The 18-year-olds are twins. They're of age now. They're going to be 19 this year. When we were kicked out of our home, they were 7. I was in a common-law relationship for 10-plus years.

After our twins were born, my common-law boyfriend and I were engaged. The twins were born in 1994. Before 1994 I applied for a house with Sagkeeng, and we were granted a house in 1995. The twins and I moved to Winnipeg in 1996 because the place we were living in, in Sagkeeng, was a one-bedroom apartment, so we moved to Winnipeg because the apartment was getting too small. The twins were two years old. They were getting big. There were four of us living in the one place.

It was actually only the twins and I who moved to Winnipeg, meanwhile maintaining a relationship with my ex-fiancé—a long-distance relationship because he stayed in Sagkeeng. After we were granted the house, in 2006 we were able to move back to Sagkeeng because our house was complete. My second daughter was born in 2001. In 2002 we were kicked out of our house—the twins, my second daughter, and I. My ex-fiancé was a drug addict. He was also an alcoholic, and for 10-plus years we suffered, my kids and I, emotional abuse, physical abuse—all kinds of abuse.

When we were kicked out the first time, we became homeless. When we were kicked out, I was getting our stuff and my ex-fiancé called the RCMP on us. They came to the house and told us we weren't able to take anything from the house—nothing. The only things we were allowed to take were our beds and our clothes. We left. We were homeless. We had nowhere to go.

I didn't like to get my parents involved, my family. I tried to shield them from that, to shield them from what we were going through. I called my parents that day. They took us in. We went to their place and lived next door to them. My brother had a house and they said we could move in there, my twins, myself, and my baby—she was just a baby at the time. We lived there for a few years. I managed to find a place in Powerview, so we lived there for six-plus years. I worked with Sagkeeng, with the band. I kept my job. I did everything I could to keep our lives going.

Then in 2011 my landlord said he was moving back to Powerview, so I would have to leave. Once again, we were homeless. We didn't have anywhere to go. I asked the ex-fiancé if there was any possibility he could find it in his heart to let us move into our house, and he said “Yes, you can move in with the condition that you're only here temporarily, because it's still my house. It still belongs to me.” I said okay. It didn't matter to me, as long as my kids and I had somewhere to stay and as long as we had a roof over our heads. He said I should remember that I was only there temporarily, and I said okay. We moved there in September of 2011, and we stayed there until July of 2012.

In the whole time we stayed there, in order for us to live in that house we had to renovate it. We spent thousands of dollars renovating that house, because it had been vacant for nine-plus years. It wasn't maintained, so we spent thousands fixing it up. Throughout the whole time my ex-fiancé was harassing us, asking over and over when we were leaving, saying that we had to get out, that we had to leave because the house was situated on their land. I said we were doing all we could to leave.

We finally left in July of last year and moved to Winnipeg. I found a place in Winnipeg. The whole time we've been paying rent, we've been paying somebody else's mortgage. I've paid almost $80,000 in rent since we've been homeless, since we weren't able to live in our house. I'm not complaining about that. I would do anything to find a place. Where my kids are concerned, I would do anything. We're living in Winnipeg now. The house is still situated on their land. We've done all we could to try to get our house back.

With our leaders, chief and council, we tried to get the house back. Our leaders told us—this was in the mid-2000s—the only way we would get our house back is if we went to court. So I went to court. It took just under two years. At the end of the court process the judge said all he could do was grant me the right to occupy the home. He said they can't give me the house because it's on crown land. I said okay, but it was kind of disappointing because our leaders were depending on him giving us our house. That's the only way they could move it.

After that I just kind of gave up. We fought for it for so many years, and we just gave up. We kind of said, okay, well, I guess we'll never get our home back. I guess we're going to pay rent until we can afford to buy our own house on the reserve, because it doesn't seem we're ever going to get help. It just doesn't seem that way. My family and I have become stronger because of it.

That's everything. I'm sorry for....

12:10 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Madame Courchene, you don't have to be sorry. Thank you very much for your words.

We will start our first round with Madame Young.

You have seven minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

I really want to thank you for being so brave, for coming today and sharing your testimony with us. It is truly, truly heartbreaking to hear your story, which is why we are here today.

I'd love to spend more time sharing our stories, because many of us have, in many different ways, worked with first nations and have walked with them. I have worked to build shelters and homes in the downtown eastside in Vancouver. Many of us in Manitoba, Calgary, and across...we have worked in shelters and with school children who have been similarly evicted and tossed away from their communities, as in the story you've told. We certainly have never walked your walk, of course, but we really want to walk alongside you, which is why we're here today to talk about Bill S-2.

Earlier on we heard testimony from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, which supports this new legislation. Vice-Chief Swain talked about the fact that he is now the third generation. His grandmother was evicted from their community and their home, and they have had to spend time away from that community, etc.

So we hear your current stories, and for over 25 years we have identified this legislative gap—we know there's a gap there—so we are presenting Bill S-2, which is legislation to close that gap to give you the rights that other Canadian women have.

If what happened to you happened to me, I would have a different outcome in the courts, right? And you have experienced everything in terms of hanging on through all of the pain, and in fact being evicted from your home and your community, where, in your case, Ms. Courchene, the home was vacant. Is that correct?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

Your partner was not even using the home. It was almost deliberately vindictive, to evict you from the community, and you had absolutely no rights.

I want to ask a couple of questions, because the opposition is not supporting the legislation. They do not feel this is important or necessary, or it's not perfect, and that's why they're not supporting it. Some opposition members have said this is just a piece of paper. It's going to make no change to communities across Canada.

I want you to speak to this, because that's not what I heard today. Having been through the court system, having had the court rule against you because of this sense of title...and giving aboriginal women rights as well as giving children and families protection. Do you think it's just a piece of paper, or do you think that having this new legislation in place will change the outcome for you—what you've gone through and where you would be today?

Could you both speak briefly about that?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Rolanda Manitowabi

I think if there had been that option more immediately, if there had been some place to go.... I know that maybe I'm in a different situation, and Jennifer as well. I'm just meeting her now, a hard-working woman taking care of her family. There are many women, however, who are very isolated and are not able to have those options or choices, or even the ability maybe to seek out legal counsel or whatever.

I think legislation can be just a piece of paper, but it doesn't necessarily have to be, and if we don't have it, then what do we have in the meantime? More women and children are being.... You know, they have no rights, and we do need all those supports in our communities. We know about the inadequate resources in many first nations, but why do we have to continue to suffer until something is 100%?

I think if this legislation had been in place, there would have been someplace to go more quickly. It would have been clearer. Maybe there would have been more people available to help with the situation.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

Thank you so much.

Ms. Courchene, do you have a response to that?

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Jennifer Courchene

Yes. I'm not sure about the politics of this legislation, this bill. I just know that there should be something in place to help. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gone through this in a first nation community. There are probably many, many other women who have gone through what I've gone through, and the story is pretty much the same: the woman loses the home. I'm not sure how other first nations communities are run, but if there had been something to help us, we would have taken it, rather than be homeless, that's for sure.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

What this legislation does is it provides that women and children in a matrimonial situation where there's violence can stay in the home. Would you prefer to stay in your own home, or would you prefer that we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building more shelters so that you can leave your communities and be in a shelter?

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Jennifer Courchene

That's one of the steps.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Ms. Manitowabi.