Status of Women Committee on April 21st, 2015

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Bonnie Schmidt]

Until then, she hadn't really had too many opportunities to work with equipment and to gain confidence in doing that kind of thing. When she showed up in her technology class, at the beginning the boys were not even wanting to talk to her. Three weeks in, when they realized that she could just outperform them on coming up with the CAD drawings, they started to huddle.

So it took a while to even start changing the culture, but the more work we've done with Skills Canada, the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, and others who are really committed to and who understand the apprenticeship system.... A lot of it is exposure and experience, and ending the cultural norms that we continue to keep coming back to—that STEM is not connected with trades, or that trades are not a valuable pathway to follow when they are incredibly valuable, or that women are not capable of doing it.

When they try it and they see it, that can actually start to change attitudes. We've found that electricians, I think, are the best represented with women from some of the heavy trades, and it's only 6%. If 6% is the highest, I mean, we're doing a disservice by not letting everybody know the connections and the integration across them.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

It's an interesting point you bring up. We had some testimony earlier this year. A lady from Edmonton has a program that she puts young women through, or women looking for a second career, to get into the trades. They make six figures when they're done that six-month program.

Our challenge now is to get that word out there. You touched on that with your daughter. You got her involved at a young age, helping in the basement.

That takes me to you, Ms. Byers and Ms. Low. You mentioned in your submission as well that your ratio for boys and girls, when they start that LEGO League at K to 8, is fifty-fifty. We've heard from many people that our focus has to be to introduce these programs to girls at a young age. It concerns me a little bit that you have such a substantial drop-off when they get to be nine and 10 years old, at 15% down. If we're going to start promoting these programs in skilled trades and the STEM programs to young girls, what are we missing there, even at this point, when they're dropping down 15%?

[Karen Low]

In some ways, it's a good-news story.

This will sound like it's really gender-biased, but sometimes I take a look at some of the guys in, say, grades 8, 9, or 10, and they're not very good on verbal. They can sit down and do the math and the programming. Then I look at their female counterparts. Well, they can do the math and the programming, but they can communicate and they can do the financial analysis. It's almost like they migrate upstream a bit. That's not saying that they still aren't using those technical skills, because they are, but they're using them at a different level. To me, they're still very important skills, but the skills grow with the verbal competency as well.

[Dorothy Byers]

Initially I was in a coed school for a long time. What I saw happening time and time again in a science lab was that the girls would be sitting back taking the notes and the boys would have their noses in the test tubes, because the girls would often defer to the boys. I believe what FIRST has done is that in the right environment, with the right mentors, girls really have the opportunity to step in and to understand that they are just as capable, and they build the skills. That's what Bonnie has really been talking about, enabling girls to try it out in a climate where they are accepted and encouraged. That's really where our work must continue.

It's also helping boys understand that girls are, as Karen said, just as competent. They just need to have the opportunities to play with the tools, really, and through that have those experiences and know that they're not to be frightened of the tools, that they can really work with them. One of the pieces that we spend time on with the girls is to make sure that they have a skills training session for part of the year so that they develop great confidence in using any kind of tool they work with.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you.

Ms. Schmidt, please answer very briefly.

[Dr. Bonnie Schmidt]

Very quickly, I think our recommendation would be as simple as raising awareness of the breadth and diversity of opportunities. I can't tell you the number of guidance counsellors, teachers, parents, and others who have said, “I didn't know. I just didn't know.”

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

I now yield the floor to Ms. Liu for five minutes.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you for the wonderful testimony we've heard today.

Thank you, Kirsty, for bringing up the issue of a chief science officer and what that person could do in terms of promoting women in STEM. It's something that we've been working on a lot. Actually my colleague, Kennedy Stewart tabled a private member's bill to create the position of the parliamentary science officer. I think absolutely that's one of the mandates that this person should have if ever that position is created.

Last week we had somewhat of an uproar about the fact that the Canadian Science and Engineering Hall of Fame didn't actually have any women nominees, so we had two women step down from the selection committee around this. I think it's something that really brought awareness to the fact that these awards and these places are very male dominated and continue to be. I think there's no reason why we shouldn't have female nominees. I mean Roberta Bondar or Patricia Baird are some of the female scientists that we absolutely could have nominated for the science hall of fame.

What could the Government of Canada be doing to encourage female role models, particularly in these kinds of institutions where we really recognize scientific excellence?

I guess we can start with Ms. Schmidt and then work around the table.

[Dr. Bonnie Schmidt]

I'm not intimately aware of what was happening at the hall of fame but what I did understand, and my bigger concern, was that there were only four nominees that were brought forward at all. The fact that there are only four nominees was a problem because we do have deep expertise in Canada, male and female.

When it comes to promoting role models, I think that we are starting to see a shift. At Let's Talk Science, we've been around for 20 years so we can start to see some trending. But out of our volunteer base of over 4,000 volunteers each year, well over 60% are women, so the recognition and the logistics coordination to help match people up with opportunities is really important. FIRST is doing a great job in getting industry mentors working with teams. We've been matching people for many years on some of these opportunities. It really is in part logistics, making awareness known, and legitimizing the importance of participating as a volunteer.

Within industry, we've had countless numbers of companies say they would really like us to structure an environment in which they can mobilize their volunteers, so we do that. We do the infrastructure. Then we go back and nobody comes out or only a few people come out because the companies haven't truly endorsed time away from work to get involved in some of these initiatives. Therefore, employees not only have to volunteer but they have to get caught up on any work they miss. It is this cultural piece. It takes everybody. It takes a country to raise a child and everybody has a bit of a place in it.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Does anyone else have anything to add to that question in particular?

[Karen Low]

I've had the chance to work with a number of research folks at different universities. I have to say there is tremendous work going on, male and female, across the country whether it's Dalhousie, Waterloo, or McGill. To me, if we just even showcase that so our young people could see it and aspire to it. It's there. It's happening every day. It is amazing.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have a quick question for Ms. Muzaffar.

Yes, we know that there are barriers for women in science and technology, but could you expand more on the intersectional aspect of it? Are there specific challenges for racialized women, low-income women, or other kinds of women? How could we look at this issue in a more intersectional way?

[Saira Muzaffar]

May I very quickly answer your previous question? What I'm hearing right now, just as a marketing professional, is that your biggest challenge is communicating to people that opportunities are already out there, and we know this with women who are already in the workforce.

Create and recommend, as a committee, a flagship campaign that promotes women in the workforce. We don't see things like that. We're starting to see campaigns that focus on skilled trades because we know that's a need coming up. But are you focusing on a key demographic? If you were to turn this into an ad campaign, if the key message you want to communicate is “we want more women in these fields”, then say that as a message, not a general message that is gender neutral.

Sorry, now on to the question you actually asked me: yes, the barriers are that we are not willing to talk about race in workplaces. We are not willing to talk about what harassment looks like when it comes to job security. We're not willing to talk about the fact that there are things women face in the workforce that are different from their male counterparts. What we are told is that if you work hard enough, if you get enough experience, if you are tough enough, if you act like it, you will get where you need to be.

That is the mindset that we enter the workforce with. We probably get that mindset a lot earlier on. We probably get it at that key drop-off point where you get kids excited when they're younger, both girls and boys. As they grow older and socialization take more of a hold, they get the reinforcement back from media, from government, from our education system, at home, at school, in society in general, that they're not meant to do these things and they're not meant to play leadership roles in these sectors.

I would think that intersectional stuff is very important and you should definitely have that as part of the conversation this committee carries out.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

I hate my job in these moments.

I am so sorry to interrupt you. I think that we have understood your message quite well. I thank you very much.

Ms. Crockatt, your turn to have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

I have to say that one of the things I love about being an MP is panels like this today where I feel very inspired by this powerhouse of women we have here in front of us. I heard Dorothy say that if there's a voice, it will be heard. You guys are screaming—I'm sorry, you're not screaming, you're making your voices heard very much here today and I thank you for all of your work.

One of the things we need to do is to make sure that people are getting out a positive message but, as Saira said, the right message.

There was something we heard earlier in committee that I would like to ask you about because I think this is drilling down. We don't need a general message so much anymore that we want women in science and technology. We need to say what areas of science and technology because we do have some information on this. Statistics Canada shows that 39% of university grads, 25 to 34 years old, were women who took a STEM degree. Among those grads, 59% of them took science and technology. Only 23% took engineering, math, and computer science. What the statistics were showing, and we've had a couple of previous witnesses saying, was that women tend to take the soft sciences and the life sciences. Those are not high-paying jobs as much as computer science, engineering, and math.

To your point, if we're thinking about women in higher-paying jobs, it would seem to me that we need to get the message out that women should be looking at those fields, not just the general science field but those particular fields. I just wanted a chance for maybe all of you to quickly touch on that so that I can also ask you about something else.

Maybe Saira, we'll start with you and work our way across—just quickly, please.

[Saira Muzaffar]

I think what you've said is very important and I wouldn't want to disagree with it by saying don't try it at all. Try it and measure it. The only thing I would flag with that message is that when you're looking at jobs within STEM that pay better, let's also look at the fact that women in general need to be paid better.

[Karen Low]

Having worked for 33 years in industry and engineering, to me, as a woman, pay is only a piece of it. As you talked about earlier, there is the flexibility. As you move up in higher management and you're leading a global team, it's just the hours, the travel. There is a whole lot more, so as for pay, as much as I think a lot of women aspire to the pay, you always have to look at your family dynamics as well. That's just another piece of the puzzle.

[Dorothy Byers]

I think women certainly want job satisfaction. That's been well documented. If they're finding a place where they understand...and if a program like FIRST or any of these are able to help girls understand what engineering is and whether this is the place where they're going to feed their passion, then that's something that we really must promote and help them understand.

[Dr. Bonnie Schmidt]

My experience kind of builds on what Dorothy touched on, which is the social implications. Often women will veer towards the fields that they feel are having an impact, whether it's an impact on society or an impact on other people. In terms of the connection between things like engineering and some of the problem solving, in our survey we found that engineers were not perceived as trying to help people. That was really enlightening for me in terms of thinking differently about how we communicate the social impact and the implications to our world of some of these other positions.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I think that's very apropos. That's kind of where I was going to go next, the perception that girls have. I loved your story about your daughter being thrust into an area that we wouldn't think girls were naturally adept at, construction. But I think that the telling of those stories, as Saira mentioned, is important because women need to see other women in those roles as role models.

Dorothy, I'm just interested in whether you can expand on your experience because a couple of times we've heard about girls needing to be on all-girl teams, and that's where we see girls really stepping up to the plate. I wonder if you could just talk about whether we need to keep segregating girls or whether...?

We've seen this bystanders thing with sexual abuse, where we need bystanders to step up, and the campaigns have been quite effective. Do you think we need a campaign where we start showcasing this for girls, for example, in social media campaigns? How do you feel about that whole area?

[Dorothy Byers]

I think if you give girls role models they're going to thrive because they are going to aspire to that. They will believe that if someone else has done it, I can too. What I have seen in all-girl teams is the opportunity for girls to do anything. They are the electrical engineers. They are the CAD designers. They are the construction people. They're the programmers. They do everything because they are in an area where they are respected as women.

Looking at the cultural shifts needed to be able to give girls the opportunity to have that sense that they can do it because the team they are working with believes they can do it, I believe working with mentors and teachers in education across the board is important to be able to help everyone understand that women must have a place at the table. Unless they have a voice their wisdom is not going to be part of the creativity and the curiosity that everybody else on that team is going to have.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I was just going to say our Minister for the Status of Women is a pediatric orthopaedic surgeon. She has her MBA. She's been on Genome Canada and I think she is really helping us push these programs ahead for girls, including the recent mentorships. She's had 6,000 mentors across the country, so I encourage people to get involved with this more.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.

Ms. Perkins, you now have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Pat Perkins, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for your presentations. They were all excellent.

To you Dorothy, with respect to your team going to the big championships right now, I wish you luck. But I also wish the girls from Trafalgar luck too, from our town, the all-girl team that's there. Maybe they'll get into some sort of a playoff against one another. That'll be fun.

I did enjoy going to the FIRST Robotics championship over in UOIT Durham College. Thousands of young people were able to come and be a part of that, and seeing all of those young women and young men who were there, they were all inspired by one another. I was tremendously taken with that.

Karen, if I am not mistaken you are an engineer, correct?