Status of Women Committee on May 7th, 2019

[Michelle Douglas]

I don't know if there's actually a systemic reason. I think there seem to be some people on bases who I'm talking to and who would like to set them up, so it's probably a matter of leadership.

I think support from political leadership within the military, to just simply make it a practical thing that they must implement, is a good thing. The military is very good at carrying out orders when given. So if there's reinforcement at the highest political levels, for example from the minister to the chief of the defence staff, it's going to be so.

I think there are gaps. I know that's the case. We can do better. That's an important way to have people feel more included, that they can therefore have some standing on a base, so that maybe the leader of that particular group could go to a base commander if there are things that are not being addressed as fully or as well as might be hoped.

That's actually a fast, tangible way to bring real change.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Madame Roy, you talked about the need for balance, more women in the military. What do you think are the main barriers to recruiting and retaining women who are lesbian, gay, transgender, two-spirit? What is the issue here in regard to why they don't come to the military and why they don't stay?

[Martine Roy]

I think there's still skepticism about how they're going to be treated. I think fear is still there. Exactly that: you go from one base to the other and it's not the same. You just talked about Madame Deschamps. Madame Deschamps just talked again, four years later, right? She's saying that, for her, she still doesn't see the global strategy. She still doesn't see that it's everywhere.

There are things that we need to highlight that we change. Maybe it's not communicated enough that we have those programs that women can just go and try for 10 days. I didn't know about it. Maybe there's more recruitment we need to do—young people at university or events. I never saw the Canadian Armed Forces at an event where I go for recruitment of new talent. That would be interesting.

As well, they need to be more aligned toward women. What is it that women like? We know what men like. What is it that women like? Me, I know I was a medical assistant because I like to help. I know that, as a woman, I like to help. That was one of the roles I chose in the army. That was the first role I chose in the army. What else could we highlight that are those really specific roles that women would like to do in the army? When I see publicity, it talks a lot about the combat, about all those things. Maybe we should talk a little bit more about something that women would see themselves in. We have to see ourselves; it has to reflect ourselves, I find.

For me, the army is like a big corporation. It's the same thing. It needs to go everywhere, to every base. Everybody has to embrace it. There should be a quality person who goes around and verifies. We laugh about those ISO 9000s—it's the same thing, a bit.

Sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

It's all good. You gave such a great testimony.

Mrs. Zahid, you have seven minutes.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all three of you for coming out today. Thank you for your courage and determination, and being a daughter and sister of armed forces people. Thank you for your service to our country.

My first question is to Ms. Douglas, and perhaps everyone could comment.

We have all seen that society has evolved greatly over the years on the LGBT issues and women's equality. Has the culture changed at the Royal Military College? Is the next generation of officers and the recruitments coming with some new attitudes? Is there appropriate training at the entry level reinforcing that? How can we support that?

[Michelle Douglas]

My experience in knowing precisely how these young women, in particular at RMC and other feeder organizations, will form the officer cadre is not as current as it might be, so I would just indicate that.

We know the condition of young women now, particularly going to university, hold many expectations. They're smart and dynamic, and have a sense of their own place in advancing organizations. That, combined with some educational training on recent history, provides the grounding for actually having quite a progressive armed forces leadership cadre emerging. We're already seeing it now.

There is the expression that it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. I don't mean to analogize anyone, only to say that people who have been grounded in tradition and people who have been grounded in dated thinking actually can be retrained to be quite progressive and real leaders in this new environment.

That's what we need to see from our current military leadership. They'll be supported and encouraged, and frankly, it will be insisted upon by those who are coming in from the military institutions, like RMC.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We need to build a more inclusive and diverse Canadian Armed Forces.

[Michelle Douglas]

Absolutely.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

What can we do to build that?

[Michelle Douglas]

That's about recruiting. That's about seeing yourself serving your country. The idea that we're a diverse military has a long way to go. Women only make up 15% of the Canadian Armed Forces. We need more diversity, just like in all walks of Canadian life. In terms of the military institutions, like RMC, I just don't know enough about what it is they're doing now to really be of assistance to you.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Ms. Dewitt, would you like to add anything?

[Danielle Dewitt]

I can't really explain too much on the RMC side of it, but I do see officers on a daily basis, as my job is to train officers. I'm usually their first interaction with an LGBT member in the trans world, and they're all usually shocked and amazed, “Oh my God, there's a trans person on this boat. What do I do?”

I teach them. What we've discussed with HMCS Venture, the people who train the officers on shore, is that I would be going in to talk to them every so often, to give them more of an introduction before they actually get to the ship, where they have to work with me directly.

My last knowledge of it is that there's actually a major...There are two majors, Major Foss, and I don't remember the other major's name. The other major works at RMC. The officers who come in from RMC should have some knowledge of a transgender member.

Once again, it all starts with recruiting. I have several friends who wanted to join the armed forces. I contacted the recruiting centre to find out what they needed to do to get in as transgender members, and it had no idea. The recruitment centre had no idea how to treat transgender members, even if they're allowed to join while they're still transitioning.

In talking to them, they have to be physically and medically transitioned first before they can join the military. I don't know if that's policy. I don't know what's going on, because I haven't been able to find any documentation that says otherwise. Either you stop your transition, do basic training, and then medically transition or you medically transition and then join the military.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Ms. Roy, would you like to add something?

[Martine Roy]

Yes. That's interesting. I met one of the new officers I'm working with and I talked with him. I saw that we assume because they're millennial, they're younger, they're bringing better baggage and they're more inclusive. It's not true. Some are, yes, but others, no. I think it's always the power of the group, the power of the platoon and the power of “What are the other ones going to think?” Sometimes that is what fouls everything up. Maybe you come from a very inclusive family and you were brought up this way and all that, but then you end up in a group of people who don't see it that way.

In the army a lot of the time, you're not going to say or do something because you're scared of being judged by the others. That's one of the issues I find. We need to undo that—to undo the power that it creates from the get-go, from the beginning. I think, yes, if we can train our new officers and make sure we touch every one of them and we ensure that if they end up in the same boat, or they end up being directed by a lesbian or by a transsexual, they will respond well.

At the end of the day, I think it's all a question of training.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'm just looking at the clock. I'm totally fascinated. I would like to just allow one question per group so that everybody gets another question.

Salma, do you want to decide who gets the next question?

Rachael, I'm going to give you the floor for one question. Let's keep it succinct—two minutes if possible.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Emmanuella.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Emmanuella.

We'll have Rachael, Emmanuella and then Irene. Let's keep it succinct. Good luck.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I address one question to all of you.

If you were to give us one recommendation each, what would be your top recommendation for change within the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Danielle Dewitt]

I would recommend better training, getting the LGBT issues dealt with at a basic training level or at the RMC level.

[Michelle Douglas]

I would also recommend better training, recalling the history of the military with the emotions and power of that experience. Telling real people's stories makes them more relatable, and I think it holds people to a higher level of account when they're thinking about their own actions.

Also a related one, of course, is that it starts from the top. If it's ordered to be so, it'll be done and I think it'll make a difference.

[Martine Roy]

Michelle, it's sad but I would go and show The Fruit Machine to all military. Why not go right to the point and get the action done? We know it's working, it's a good movie. It's exactly as it's shown. That's a good subject, I think.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Emmanuella.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I didn't get a chance to thank you yet. Thank you all for being here today and for the amazing testimony.

All three of you mentioned that there are policies in place, and policy is great on paper but it's not always put into effect. What are some of the ways the policies would be put into effect, like Operation Honour or even a sexual misconduct response centre? How would these be more effective tools? What would you suggest leaders do to make sure people at all ranks follow suit?

[Michelle Douglas]

One suggestion I might have is that they hold round tables within their sessions or town halls within units. The leaders of those units can ask for specific feedback.

I think it could be part of a rating system of accountability. If there was feedback that came from that, one hopes it would be sincerely heard. It could be reflected to their superiors, and be reflected in some of the annual reporting and assessment tools that are used. If that's done, I think you'd hear real voices on the ground reflecting their clear views and being held accountable for delivery on that through the assessment process. That might be one way to help close the gap between policy and action.